[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Meadmaker]

The suicide rate among us is very high, and I know personally how transitioning and public acceptance and support of us can be crucial in lowering that rate.

I've attempted suicide twice before due to my dysphoria and being afraid to come out and transition. My life is far better now.

It would seem intuitive that cultural acceptance would have a positive effect. I just wondered if the phenomenon had been studied, and if the actual findings supported what one would intuitively suspect.

 

[LondonJohn]

Curiously absent from the quote that you provided is any reference to the question I asked.

Well, given that all of those references point to intolerance, bigotry, discrimination and abuse as very significant drivers of suicide or attempted suicide, I'd argue that the enacting of legislation which recognises transgender rights and offers protection against discrimination and abuse..... would pretty much by definition result in some sort of reduction in suicide/attempted suicide among transgender people.

Given that gay rights have been recognised, adopted and enshrined in law (in almost all liberal democracies) for many years now, there should certainly be research comparing suicidality amongst LGB people before vs after. You might be able to look that up as a reasonable comparator, if you were interested.

Oh goodness. I seemed to have missed the most recent culturally acceptable memo. I might end up going a couple of years being unacceptable until the next one comes out.

Like I said: adherence to this convention and courtesy may not matter to you at all. And you've just made it abundantly clear here that it indeed does not matter to you. Your prerogative.

 

[cullennz]

Back when being transgender and having dysphoria was considered a "mental illness" it was considered a disorder, and was treated as such. Gender Identity Disorder in particular. Thankfully we are moving away from that kind of thinking, just like we stopped considering homosexuality a mental illness.

And it's nothing to be ashamed of, I deal with actual mental heath issues myself. But being transgender is not one of them.

Happy to be proven wrong, but from my understanding gender dysphoria is still classed as a disorder in the manuals from the uber psychiatry gods.

It is just a rewording of GID.

 

[Boudicca90]

I'm very glad to hear that you're in recovery from that bleak period in your life when you felt that the best (or maybe only) course of action for you was to kill yourself.

Of course, I also hope that you'll be able to live your best life going forward, in a society which recognises and respects transgender rights (and indeed the very validity of transgender identity). With a following wind and the assistance of lawmakers, law enforcers and educators, I hope that this will be the case (aside from the last remaining reactionaries) before the end of this decade. I already know that teens and young adults generally have very high levels of respect and accommodation for transgender people, so that in itself points towards a tolerant and accepting future.

Thank you. I feel that things will definitely change as kids and teens today are much more accepting of not only trans people, but LGBTQ+ people in general.

A lot of that comes from us being out and open, I know my best friend's kids are very accepting of us seeing as how they accepted both me and their mother coming out as trans very easily.

It's the older generations that are still stuck in older, outdated ways of thinking that we have to still deal with.

 

[Boudicca90]

Happy to be proven wrong, but from my understanding gender dysphoria is still classed as a disorder in the manuals from the uber psychiatry gods.

It is just a rewording of GID.

Nope, unlike GID, Gender Dysphoria isn't considered a mental disorder by the DSM: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

More work needs to be done to destigmatize it in the general public, but it is definitively not a mental disorder like it was once considered (much like homosexuality). More and more we are finding that transgenderism is biological in origin, and GD is merely the result of the incongruence between the sex we were assigned at birth and the one that we actually are.

Here is an example of some recent research: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm

 

[cullennz]

Thank you. I feel that things will definitely change as kids and teens today are much more accepting of not only trans people, but LGBTQ+ people in general.

A lot of that comes from us being out and open, I know my best friend's kids are very accepting of us seeing as how they accepted both me and their mother coming out as trans very easily.

It's the older generations that are still stuck in older, outdated ways of thinking that we have to still deal with.

Things have already changed for the better for trans people, from all ages and walks of life.

It seems purely now to what degree people are willing to give leeway with an unknown individuals delusion.

 

[Boudicca90]

Things have already changed for the better for trans people, from all ages and walks of life.

It seems purely now to what degree people are willing to give leeway with an unknown individuals delusion.

Stop with that delusion crap when I have just pointed out that it is definitively not considered a delusion by medical and psychiatric organizations.

 

[cullennz]

As I said I thought Gender dysphoria still fell under the category of DSM-5 (the uber book) of disorders after the name changed from Gender identity disorder.

If right I am just guessing it is probably just to make feel better about themselves. As weird academics tend to want to do.

Personally think it might have some odd links to integrity identity disorder in some cases as the similarities with some surgically transitioning people, to me seems a bit too close for comfort.

But I am no psychologist so probably talking pants.

 

[Aber]

The only thing to consider, when discussing transgender rights, is the potential incremental impact in terms of all levels of offending behaviour (from violent rape down to being made to feel uncomfortable) against female women. If there is an actionable level of incremental impact, something will have to change, and pretty quickly.

And as reported this week, women in the Home Office voting with their feet against unisex toilets?

You consistentently underestimate impacts on women.

 

[Collin237]

And as reported this week, women in the Home Office voting with their feet against unisex toilets?

You consistentently underestimate impacts on women.

The unisex restrooms I've seen in the US have one toilet and one door. The door to the entire room is also the door with a lock. I'm assuming it's different in England?

 

[Roboramma]

Well, given that all of those references point to intolerance, bigotry, discrimination and abuse as very significant drivers of suicide or attempted suicide,

Odd that you didn't choose to quote those portions, which would have been at least marginally on topic with respect to the question Meadmaker asked.

I'd argue that the enacting of legislation which recognises transgender rights and offers protection against discrimination and abuse..... would pretty much by definition result in some sort of reduction in suicide/attempted suicide among transgender people.

That sounds reasonable, but the real world doesn't always turn out to work the way we expect.

 

[LondonJohn]

Odd that you didn't choose to quote those portions, which would have been at least marginally on topic with respect to the question Meadmaker asked.

That sounds reasonable, but the real world doesn't always turn out to work the way we expect.

Feel free to do your own research into the subject if you like.

 

[Manger Douse]

Feel free to do your own research into the subject if you like.

Do you think the multiple people who've had issues with your links not saying what you claim they say are lying or just stupid?

 

[Lplus]

The unisex restrooms I've seen in the US have one toilet and one door. The door to the entire room is also the door with a lock. I'm assuming it's different in England?

No, it's the same. Usually in small establishments which don't have the room for segregated restrooms.

 

[d4m10n]

I'd argue that the enacting of legislation which recognises transgender rights and offers protection against discrimination and abuse..... would pretty much by definition result in some sort of reduction in suicide/attempted suicide among transgender people.

Given that many nations are indeed going forward with such legislation, have we actually observed a decrease in the number of trans people attempting suicide or self-harm?

 

[Louden Wilde]

It would seem intuitive that cultural acceptance would have a positive effect. I just wondered if the phenomenon had been studied, and if the actual findings supported what one would intuitively suspect.

The general link between discrimination and suicide is not strong - at least in the US, whites have higher rate of suicide than African-Americans or Latinos. One factor that does correlate highly with ideation and attempts is mental illness.

 

[LondonJohn]

Given that many nations are indeed going forward with such legislation, have we actually observed a decrease in the number of trans people attempting suicide or self-harm?

I suspect that because a) most countries are still too low in the foothills of real reform, and b) most of that lower-level reform has in any case only been introduced very recently, it is currently too soon to be able to gather robust/credible data on this.

However (as I've said before), I think it's absolutely feasible to look to the introduction of legislation around gay rights as a suitable proxy, coupled with the clear historic (to the present day) high incidence of suicide/attempted suicide amongst transgender people (especially when linked with the stated underlying reasoning).


So... what we have is a current situation where the apparent incidence of suicidal intent among transgender people is shockingly high, when compared with any other demographic group. And we also have decent evidence that this high incidence is primarity due to abuse, marginalisation, non-acceptance, bullying, lack of (and denial of) rights, and so on.

And from this - and looking at the gay rights comparator for further guidance - I believe it's fair to form a credible hypothesis that the incidence of suicidal intent among transgender people is very likely to fall significantly as and when transgender identity rights are properly recognised and protected (as was the case for gay rights between around the 1960s and the 1990s).

But we will only be able to get the direct evidence to evaluate in, I would suggest, at least 5 years from now. In the meantime, I propose that the above hypothesis is a reasonable kicking-off point.

 

[LondonJohn]

The general link between discrimination and suicide is not strong - at least in the US, whites have higher rate of suicide than African-Americans or Latinos. One factor that does correlate highly with ideation and attempts is mental illness.
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I don't think ethnicity is a reasonable comparator here.

And I hope - and believe - that your somewhat throwaway line at the end about mental illness (which was separate from the datapoints you presented) was not meant to imply anything to suggest that gender dysphoria and transgender identity are mental illnesses.

 

[d4m10n]

However (as I've said before), I think it's absolutely feasible to look to the introduction of legislation around gay rights as a suitable proxy...

Of course it isn't. Being gay or lesbian doesn't involve any diagnosis and treatment these days.

 

[Collin237]

No, it's the same. Usually in small establishments which don't have the room for segregated restrooms.

I mean, the unisex restrooms the article says were built in the Home Office.

(BTW, what is the Home Office?)