[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[theprestige]

Oh...well, too many negatives or questions for me to grasp. The point is that I would say that I support transgender rights. As for violence against women, it would all depend on what you actually allowed and what sort of restrictions would be in place. It's so hard to talk about at such a vague level.

One thing that I really don't like when it comes to the discussion of violence against women is that people say that unless you can prove some correlation to increased violence, it doesn't matter. I think that's wrong. I think Julia Burca is harmed by having to take her clothes off in the presence of a male, even if she doesn't get assault.

There's also something perverse about the idea that we shouldn't try to mitigate predicted risk until *after* some substantial amount of harm has occurred.

"This is likely to lead to more rapes."

"There's already lots of rapes. What's a few more rapes between social experimenters? Besides, we won't know if there's more rapes until we try. So let's give it a try, and if a bunch more women get raped, we'll reconsider. While even more women get raped. What could go wrong?"

 

[LondonJohn]

How many female victims do you consider an acceptable number while they are carrying out this grand experiment.

Plus ça change, huh?

That would be for governments, legislatures and regulators to decide.

But, hypothetically speaking, you can take it as read that "one" would not count as an unacceptable number, if that helps.

(You also appear to be unaware that many new areas of legislation are introduced on exactly this kind of "monitor and amend if required" basis. But if you prefer to go with the pejorative "grand experiment", well that's your call)

 

[theprestige]

Because you need far more than a few documented cases in order to determine the best policy.

Or maybe you should determine policy with risk prevention in mind, rather than risk acceptance.

Especially when it's the risk of rape.

In project management, the risk of a project being delayed would be addressed during planning by setting aside funds to get the project back on schedule if the risk actually occurs.

Can't really do that for the risk of prison rape. I mean, you can, but it'd be pretty inhumane to approach the problem that way.

"Oh, you got raped? Yeah, we thought that might happen. Good news, though! We set aside money for rape counseling! And your experience is a valuable data point for us as we try to figure out a policy that only allows a very small amount of rape. Thank you so much for participating in our little experiment."

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove personalisation

 

[d4m10n]

I'd say it's reasonable that, for example, transwomen should be able to use women's changing rooms in facilities where there are separately-gendered changing areas. Rather than a) being made to use the men's changing rooms, b) being made to use the disabled changing rooms, c) being made to change in their car or at home, or d) being prohibited in using these types of facility.

I'd say that it's reasonable to expect men to reserve their comments to the men's changing rooms. We don't have any useful experience being female, socializing in women's rooms, dealing with menstruation, feeling immodest around males, etc. We don't really know what social and personal functions those rooms serve, aside from what we've heard secondhand. All that said, I think it is reasonable to allow trans men to use the men's facilities.

 

[LondonJohn]

There's also something perverse about the idea that we shouldn't try to mitigate predicted risk until *after* some substantial amount of harm has occurred.

"This is likely to lead to more rapes."

"There's already lots of rapes. What's a few more rapes between social experimenters? Besides, we won't know if there's more rapes until we try. So let's give it a try, and if a bunch more women get raped, we'll reconsider. While even more women get raped. What could go wrong?"

In the UK, they will only ever put speed-monitoring cameras at a given locations unless & until there are shown to be certain threashold levels of deaths and serious injuries at that location.

So I guess they have deaths and serious injuries on their hands in this respect too, right?

Also, I categorically did not say that no ex ante attempts at mitigating offending against female women should take place. In fact, I've written more than once in these threads that certain safeguards should be put in place in advance of (or at the point of) legislation in these areas.

Hey ho.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'd say that it's reasonable to expect men to reserve their comments to the men's changing rooms. We don't have any useful experience being female, socializing in women's rooms, dealing with menstruation, feeling immodest around males, etc. We don't really know what social and functions those rooms serve, aside from what we've heard secondhand. All that said, I think it is reasonable to allow trans men to use the men's facilities.

Yes, I agree that transmen should be allowed to use the men's facilities (the same one that is shared by cismen such as I am). Just as transwomen should be allowed to use the women's facilities.

 

[cullennz]

Plus ça change, huh?

That would be for governments, legislatures and regulators to decide.

But, hypothetically speaking, you can take it as read that "one" would not count as an unacceptable number, if that helps.

(You also appear to be unaware that many new areas of legislation are introduced on exactly this kind of "monitor and amend if required" basis. But if you prefer to go with the pejorative "grand experiment", well that's your call)

I was just thinking if the numbers of victims to escalate, your first go to is harsher sentencing and then monitoring if that works.

That is more a longitudinal study and takes years, so I hope if they do it the people running it have an idea of the number.

 

[Tomboy]

Because you need far more than a few documented cases in order to determine the best policy.

However, if you're still annoyed by my "vagaries and generalities" I'm sure it wouldn't take me too long to find for you many more than a few specific accounts of transgender people who have taken their own lives on account of feeling unprotected, marginalised, denied and/or mocked within society. Would that help you out?

What about the numerous women (biological females, that is) who have PTSD, are suicidal or have other mental health problems as a result of being sexually assaulted?

Wasn't the question asked in one of these threads about how many women (biological females) have been sexually assaulted or know someone who has and the answer was everyone? And even that is probably a low estimate because it happens so often that biological females tend to dismiss anything short of actual rape as being not important because so many women have been through so much worse?

Forgive me for thinking it's very naïve to think that it's even possible to enforce stricter punishments when it's so difficult to get a conviction as it is, much less that the threat of stricter punishments would be any sort of deterrent.

.... then it's a given that legislators and regulators will need to re-appraise the situation quickly. That might, just for example, take the form of tougher sentencing for these sorts of offences (and subsequent monitoring to see how effective this might be as a deterrent); more central- and local-level resources being allocated to effective monitoring and alarm systems (and subsequent monitoring to see how effective this might be, both as a deterrent in and of itself, and as a means to guaranteeing more convictions for the offenders, with its own deterrent effect); increased public education on the issue; or, if methods such as these fail to safeguard female women adequately, a modification or reversal of parts of legislation.

How about we implement these things now and see if they provide additional safeguards to biological females that result reduced incidences of sexual assault, and then, maybe, we can talk about transwomen in female spaces on the basis of self ID alone.

 

[Meadmaker]

Because you need far more than a few documented cases in order to determine the best policy.

However, if you're still annoyed by my "vagaries and generalities" I'm sure it wouldn't take me too long to find for you many more than a few specific accounts of transgender people who have taken their own lives on account of feeling unprotected, marginalised, denied and/or mocked within society. Would that help you out?

Ok. So, no answer on the real people question. Great.


As to your question, no, it wouldn't help me out. I'm going to enter heartless ******* mode for just a moment. Julia Burca is not going to cause anyone's suicide by not wanting to be seen naked by a guy, or anyone she thinks of as a guy just because they happen to have testicles. Even if someone does end up killing herself, it isn't Julia's fault.

 

[theprestige]

In the UK, they will only ever put speed-monitoring cameras at a given locations unless & until there are shown to be certain threashold levels of deaths and serious injuries at that location.

So I guess they have deaths and serious injuries on their hands in this respect too, right?

Budgetary constraints. I bet you anything that project doesn't have the funds to put such cameras at all intersections, so they have to prioritize which ones need them the most.

Also, they already have plenty of data about which ones need them the most.

Your proposal doesn't have budgetary constraints. And it involves generating data by creating new risk of harm and measuring the new harm that occurs. I'm pretty sure experiments of this nature, especially on human subjects, is considered grossly unethical.

Much as it pains me to say it, I think your analogy has failed.

 

[LondonJohn]

What about the numerous women (biological females, that is) who have PTSD, are suicidal or have other mental health problems as a result of being sexually assaulted?

Wasn't the question asked in one of these threads about how many women (biological females) have been sexually assaulted or know someone who has and the answer was everyone? And even that is probably a low estimate because it happens so often that biological females tend to dismiss anything short of actual rape as being not important because so many women have been through so much worse?

Forgive me for thinking it's very naïve to think that it's even possible to enforce stricter punishments when it's so difficult to get a conviction as it is, much less that the threat of stricter punishments would be any sort of deterrent.



How about we implement these things now and see if they provide additional safeguards to biological females that result reduced incidences of sexual assault, and then, maybe, we can talk about transwomen in female spaces on the basis of self ID alone.

The only thing to consider, when discussing transgender rights, is the potential incremental impact in terms of all levels of offending behaviour (from violent rape down to being made to feel uncomfortable) against female women. If there is an actionable level of incremental impact, something will have to change, and pretty quickly.

 

[theprestige]

Plus ça change, huh?

That would be for governments, legislatures and regulators to decide.

Plus c'est la même chose.

You're a citizen in a democracy. Ultimately it's your responsibility to decide these things. It's your responsibility to consider the policies being proposed, and to vote your conscience. If it's a politician who's making campaign promises, it's your responsibility to consider the matter, make up your own mind, and take personal responsibility for your vote. Same thing if it's a referendum for the policy itself.

Even though it's the governments that will end up making the decision and implementing it, you still have a responsibility as a citizen (and as a thinking, rational human being) to reach your own conclusions and judge your government by how closely they hew to your values and principles.

Here, you're just abdicating your responsibility to think for yourself. If the question is so hard for you to answer, what makes you think the functionaries at the Office for National Statistics are going to do any better?

 

[Distracted1]

Yes, I agree that transmen should be allowed to use the men's facilities (the same one that is shared by cismen such as I am). Just as transwomen should be allowed to use the women's facilities.

it is logical, then, that trans-women be barred from using facilities designated for use by men.
You support that, no?

 

[Meadmaker]

Heh. It took me a minute to parse your meaning.

At first I thought you were taking a sarcastic dig at the idea that a young woman can confidently declare that she knows what it feels like to be a man, and that she is a man regardless of what the medical professionals might have to say about it.

It gets confusing sometimes on this topic.

However, sometimes, the correct answer is the most obvious one.

 

[Meadmaker]

Suicide is often mentioned as a reason to change policy toward transgenders, but is there actually any evidence that changing public policy on transgender rights has an effect on the suicide rate? I know it's not an easy thing to study, and changes in policy are relatively new, so there may not be any data available. I'm just wondering if such a study exists.

 

[Collin237]

The only thing to consider, when discussing transgender rights, is the potential incremental impact in terms of all levels of offending behaviour (from violent rape down to being made to feel uncomfortable) against female women. If there is an actionable level of incremental impact, something will have to change, and pretty quickly.

Something already has.

https://barcc.org/transgendersurvivors

Apparently Boston has realized that trans rights do not need to impinge on women's rights.

 

[LondonJohn]

Suicide is often mentioned as a reason to change policy toward transgenders, but is there actually any evidence that changing public policy on transgender rights has an effect on the suicide rate? I know it's not an easy thing to study, and changes in policy are relatively new, so there may not be any data available. I'm just wondering if such a study exists.

You should check out this new-fangled thingumbob called "goggle" (not quite sure how to spell it).

I just went there, typed in "transgender suicide", and guess what?

It only went and gave me links to literally dozens of medical/academic studies into the prevalence and risk of suicide among the transgender population!


Like, for example, this one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/

... which contains the following statement in the abstract:

the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population and seems to occur during every stage of transitioning. It is important to have specific attention for suicide risk in the counseling of this population and in providing suicide prevention programs.

Or this:

https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/transgender-people-suicide/

... which contains the following:

Trans people are more at risk of suicide than heterosexual people and lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. Studies and surveys have shown many transgender people have thought about and attempted suicide, and previous suicidal behaviours such as these are the most reliable indicators of future suicide risk

Or this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiew...trans-people-attempt-suicide/?sh=5b60923f7d73

... which contains the following:

Three in 10 young trans people in America have tried to take their life in the last year, according to a Trevor Project report.

The report also says 6 in 10 trans and non-binary young people have seriously considered taking their lives too.

Their survey released in June shows a vast 8 in 10 of the trans and non-binary respondents have faced discrimination due to their gender identity.

The figures of trans young people who have tried to take their life are double their cisgender, people born in the gender they identify with, LGB counterparts.

15% of young lesbian, gay and bisexual people will try to take their life, compared to 29% of young trans people.

Or this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...uicide-rate-among-transgender-people-n1067546

... which contains the following:

The death of a comedian who was recently referenced in Dave Chapelle’s Netflix special “Sticks and Stones” has underscored the disproportionately high suicidality rate among transgender people.

... the suicide rates for transgender and gender-nonconforming people are much higher than the national averages. According to the National Center for Transgender Equality’s 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey, 40 percent of adult respondents reported having attempted suicide in their lifetime — almost nine times the attempted suicide rate in the general U.S. population.

Aaaaaaand so on.


Turns out that if one is truly interested in researching something and gathering relevant evidence or documentation, it's incredibly easy and simple to find it...


ETA: and btw, I'm not sure that using the noun "transgenders" to refer to transgender people is culturally appropriate/acceptable - just as, for example, it's not appropriate/acceptable to refer to gay people as "gays", or to refer to black people as "blacks". That's if this sort of care over how one ought to refer to these sorts of groups is something that matters to you, of course. It very well may not - in which case please disregard this addendum.

 

[Boudicca90]

Suicide is often mentioned as a reason to change policy toward transgenders, but is there actually any evidence that changing public policy on transgender rights has an effect on the suicide rate? I know it's not an easy thing to study, and changes in policy are relatively new, so there may not be any data available. I'm just wondering if such a study exists.

The suicide rate among us is very high, and I know personally how transitioning and public acceptance and support of us can be crucial in lowering that rate.

I've attempted suicide twice before due to my dysphoria and being afraid to come out and transition. My life is far better now.

 

[Meadmaker]

Aaaaaaand so on.

Curiously absent from the quotes that you provided is any reference to the question I asked.

ETA: and btw, I'm not sure that using the noun "transgenders" to refer to transgender people is culturally appropriate/acceptable - just as, for example, it's not appropriate/acceptable to refer to gay people as "gays", or to refer to black people as "blacks". That's if this sort of care over how one ought to refer to these sorts of groups is something that matters to you, of course. It very well may not - in which case please disregard this addendum.

Oh goodness. I seemed to have missed the most recent culturally acceptable memo. I might end up going a couple of years being unacceptable until the next one comes out.

 

[LondonJohn]

The suicide rate among us is very high, and I know personally how transitioning and public acceptance and support of us can be crucial in lowering that rate.

I've attempted suicide twice before due to my dysphoria and being afraid to come out and transition. My life is far better now.

I'm very glad to hear that you're in recovery from that bleak period in your life when you felt that the best (or maybe only) course of action for you was to kill yourself.

Of course, I also hope that you'll be able to live your best life going forward, in a society which recognises and respects transgender rights (and indeed the very validity of transgender identity). With a following wind and the assistance of lawmakers, law enforcers and educators, I hope that this will be the case (aside from the last remaining reactionaries) before the end of this decade. I already know that teens and young adults generally have very high levels of respect and accommodation for transgender people, so that in itself points towards a tolerant and accepting future.