[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Sherkeu]

I think the difference, which Sherkeu is trying to be gentle about, is that one group gains sexual arousal and stimulus from being perceived as women, and being allowed into "forbidden" female spaces. They are being sexually aroused by breaking that social taboo and infiltrating the "mysterious other". This group uses their claim to womanhood as a way to force women to accommodate their sexual paraphilia - without the actual consent of the women involved.

The other group isn't doing that.

I figure people know what I am talking about. Getting into specifics about what they do is uncomfortable to me, can derail from my main point, or gets too overtly sexual, even though that is precisely my point.

I think if there were only women in this thread I would say exactly what I mean.

 

[xjx388]

You are right in that I would want to be treated accurately, that's why if there is any confusion in a medical setting (which there sometimes is with me) I mention that I am transgender and assigned male at birth. That gets my point across without having to be labeled as "male", since I see myself as female.

This right here is a very important statement.

You seem to acknowledge here, quite explicitly, that you understand your physical body is not female.

When it’s important for accurate diagnosis, you want to make sure the doctor understands that you are not what you appear to be.

You seem to understand the absurdity of a doctor thinking that females can have penises.

How do you reconcile this with your earlier declaration that females can have penises?

 

[Joe Random]

Seriously, with what this place started out as, the phrase "female penis" ought rightly to have been the conversational equivalent of a divide by zero error.

******* hell.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Regarding brain sex, which has been brought up a few times, research does show cross-sex differences, however such differences in the past have been used to demonstrate the biological underpinnings of homosexuality. If having a "female brain" makes one female, then one would have to argue that gay men are female.

Instead, there is a distinct difference found after controlling for sexuality that isn't sex related at all:

Similar patterns were detected in transgender persons compared with heterosexual cisgender controls, but the significant clusters disappeared when adding homosexual controls, and correcting for sexual orientation. Instead, both TrW and TrM displayed singular features, showing greater Cth as well as weaker structural and functional connections in the anterior cingulate-precuneus and right occipito-parietal cortex, regions known to process own body perception in the context of self.

Linky.

After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation.

Linky.

The first study also noted that the aggregate sex-associated differences were largely due to the "homosexual transgender" group, that is transgender people attracted to their sex at birth. Previous research that looked specifically at a "heterosexual transgender" group also found:

The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized. The observed changes in MtF-TR bring attention to the networks inferred in processing of body perception.

Linky.

So the commonality in transgender people, at least from brain scans, is not cross-sex brain differences, but rather differences with the networks pertaining to self perception and body ownership.

 

[Boudicca90]

This right here is a very important statement.

You seem to acknowledge here, quite explicitly, that you understand your physical body is not female.

When it’s important for accurate diagnosis, you want to make sure the doctor understands that you are not what you appear to be.

You seem to understand the absurdity of a doctor thinking that females can have penises.

How do you reconcile this with your earlier declaration that females can have penises?

My physical body is female, I am simply pointing out it wasn't always like that. And I only do that if they assume I have some anatomy that I don't have, like a uterus.

And to everyone else, now that the moderator has clarified things, I hope you will all call me by my proper gender and pronouns so I won't have to keep reporting people. Thank you.

 

[Ron Obvious]

So the commonality in transgender people, at least from brain scans, is not cross-sex brain differences, but rather differences with the networks pertaining to self perception and body ownership.

Interesting. So is it similar to Body Integrity Identity Disorder then? Makes sense to me.

 

[Sherkeu]

My physical body is female, I am simply pointing out it wasn't always like that. And I only do that if they assume I have some anatomy that I don't have, like a uterus.

And to everyone else, now that the moderator has clarified things, I hope you will all call me by my proper gender and pronouns so I won't have to keep reporting people. Thank you.

And I hope you understand that your blanket labels on me, and others, were also quite offensive (though I do get over things rather quick and I carry on).

When my kid was still an infant, our hippy cowboy-boot-wearing pediatrician gave me some very wise words from his 30yr experience.

1. Don't feed your kid those goldfish crackers. It's junk food.
2. Don't label your whole child for things they have done...label the ACTION they did and address that specifically.

So my daughter is never a 'smart kid' or 'disrespectful child'...it is always, "that was a very smart answer you gave", or "what you said was disrespectful". And she gets feedback on why...good or bad and always honest.

It's important to make that distinction.

 

[Joe Random]

My physical body is female, I am simply pointing out it wasn't always like that. And I only do that if they assume I have some anatomy that I don't have, like a uterus.

And to everyone else, now that the moderator has clarified things, I hope you will all call me by my proper gender and pronouns so I won't have to keep reporting people. Thank you.

Meow has a point : you're simply wrong, mate

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[llwyd]

I think, being rational, most people here would acknowlege the fact that body dysphoria is a real and serious condition and that transitioning treatments seem to work for the most part. And, being rational, most people probably also readily accept the fact people suffering from it have been victims of most hideous persecutions and violence - and many still are all over the world. And, bit more daringly, I'm sure for the most part people here do accept that gender and biological sex are both meaningful and separate concepts. A certain respect and sensitivity probably would not be anti-rational or anti-sceptic, or would it?

 

[Aber]

I think, being rational, most people here would acknowlege the fact that body dysphoria is a real and serious condition and that transitioning treatments seem to work for the most part.

No; there are other forms of body dysphoria eg anorexia and those who would like to lose a limb; where other approaches are standard as opposed to affirming the dysphoria.

 

[The Atheist]

My physical body is female...

You can kid yourself all you like, but you won't kid anyone else.

Having fake breasts and a simulacrum of a vulva does not give you a female physical body.

 

[llwyd]

No; there are other forms of body dysphoria eg anorexia and those who would like to lose a limb; where other approaches are standard as opposed to affirming the dysphoria.

Yeah, my bad, meant to write gender dysphoria. I will correct it if the forum software will allow.

edit: Unfortunately not possible to edit any longer - anyway, I guess the meaning is pretty obvious though

 

[caveman1917]

Two things.

1) You only have to understand what other people mean when they use words differently than you do, you do not have to change your own usage.

Sure, like arguing about whether the Earth is flat where you only have to understand that other people mean something else with the term "flat" or "Earth." Word games are not arguments.

 

[caveman1917]

Context matters. We agree that there is a social construct of womanhood, that anyone can perform or attempt to perform, to whatever degree they choose, and with varying degrees of acceptance by their surrounding society. I think it's reasonable to use the term woman to refer to that performance, as distinct from the biological reality.

Well I don't think it's reasonable to require women to (attempt to) perform something. Butch lesbians are women.

 

[theprestige]

Regarding brain sex, which has been brought up a few times, research does show cross-sex differences, however such differences in the past have been used to demonstrate the biological underpinnings of homosexuality. If having a "female brain" makes one female, then one would have to argue that gay men are female.

Instead, there is a distinct difference found after controlling for sexuality that isn't sex related at all:



Linky.



Linky.

The first study also noted that the aggregate sex-associated differences were largely due to the "homosexual transgender" group, that is transgender people attracted to their sex at birth. Previous research that looked specifically at a "heterosexual transgender" group also found:



Linky.

So the commonality in transgender people, at least from brain scans, is not cross-sex brain differences, but rather differences with the networks pertaining to self perception and body ownership.

It kinda seems like the analogies to homosexuality are off the mark, and the analogies to BIID are closer to it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It kinda seems like the analogies to homosexuality are off the mark, and the analogies to BIID are closer to it.

Homosexuality used to be in the DSM. Treating queer people as mentally ill is nothing new.

 

[theprestige]

I think, being rational, most people here would acknowlege the fact that body dysphoria is a real and serious condition and that transitioning treatments seem to work for the most part. And, being rational, most people probably also readily accept the fact people suffering from it have been victims of most hideous persecutions and violence - and many still are all over the world. And, bit more daringly, I'm sure for the most part people here do accept that gender and biological sex are both meaningful and separate concepts. A certain respect and sensitivity probably would not be anti-rational or anti-sceptic, or would it?

A certain respect and civility are what we all practice on this subject in our daily lives. I know I do, anyway. But we can't have a rational debate about definitions and public policy if we're constrained from factual statements by a slavish devotion to "respect and sensitivity".

 

[JoeMorgue]

"I have to (and indeed just should without having to) treat you with respect and civility"

and

"I have to (and indeed just should without having to) treat you with respect and civility and you and you alone get to totally define what respect and civility are"

are two very, very, very different statements.

 

[theprestige]

My physical body is female,

This is factually untrue.

I am simply pointing out it wasn't always like that.

And still isn't.

And I only do that if they assume I have some anatomy that I don't have, like a uterus.

If they assume from your claim to be female that you have female anatomy that you don't have, you mean.

And to everyone else, now that the moderator has clarified things, I hope you will all call me by my proper gender and pronouns so I won't have to keep reporting people. Thank you.

Preferred pronouns.

 

[theprestige]

Homosexuality used to be in the DSM. Treating queer people as mentally ill is nothing new.

Treating people with BIID as mentally ill is nothing new either.

But okay, sure, have it your way.

Resolved:
- There is no medical need to accommodate a transgender person's gender identity in public life.
- There is no medical need to acknowledge or use a transgender person's preferred pronouns.
- There is no medical need to transition children.
- Transgenderism is not a medical condition that needs treatment of any kind; certainly not fundamental changes in public policy as part of such "treatment".

Happy now?