[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Collin237]

Some states are going after trans rights somewhat more directly of late.

From that article:

However, some conservative politicians want to take that decision out of the hands of doctors and parents who know these teens best — and put it in the hands of the state.

The same thing IGLYO is trying to do in the "liberal" direction. They're both an attack on trans rights.

 

[Elaedith]

Looks like the ONS definitions that LJ gave are disputed by clinical researchers. So much for LJ's claims of the ONS representing the opinion of the medical experts.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/onsvalentines?src=hashtag_click

 

[LondonJohn]

Looks like the ONS definitions that LJ gave are disputed by clinical researchers. So much for LJ's claims of the ONS representing the opinion of the medical experts.

Nope.

That article gets completely the wrong (and ignorant) end of the stick.

Perhaps this will help explain the true situation about exactly which questions are being asked in the 2021 UK Census, and why:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55721123

 

[Manger Douse]

Nope.



That article gets completely the wrong (and ignorant) end of the stick.



Perhaps this will help explain the true situation about exactly which questions are being asked in the 2021 UK Census, and why:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55721123

Still nothing from these "scores of medical experts" I see

 

[Collin237]

Nope.

That article gets completely the wrong (and ignorant) end of the stick.

Perhaps this will help explain the true situation about exactly which questions are being asked in the 2021 UK Census, and why:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55721123

You could have just mentioned that a long time ago.

The fact that there are two separate fields, one for sex and one for gender, also raises an important question. Obviously, the sex field has been self-identified, around the world, long before a gender field was even proposed. That's been okay because it's reduntant; sex is already observed (or as they say now, "assigned") at birth.

Surely there can be established a process of "assigning" gender as a long-range social project extending throughout primary education.

If you're as good a researcher as you say you are, maybe you can find out for us whether something like that has been proposed?

ETA: A census field is a dataset, not a definition. And the process of conducting a census is combinatorical, not medical. Manger Douse is correct; you are indeed insisting on huge category errors.

 

[Aber]

They're both an attack on trans rights.

Please explain what "trans rights" are, and why IGLYO's actions are an attack on them..

 

[Aber]

Perhaps this will help explain the true situation about exactly which questions are being asked in the 2021 UK Census, and why:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55721123

Which ignores recent history. eg from 2017

The "sex" question in the next census could be made voluntary after claims it discriminates against transgender people.

The "tentative" recommendation has been made in an Office for National Statistics (ONS) report on gender identity.

 

[LondonJohn]

Still nothing from these "scores of medical experts" I see

Jehovah.


"First though, it is necessary to point out that the terms sex and gender are not synonyms. Sex refers to the biological differences between males and females. Gender refers to the continuum of complex psychosocial self-perceptions, attitudes, and expectations people have about members of both sexes. Even the terms male and female, man and woman are not interchangeable. What it means to be male or female originates from physical characteristics derived from sex chromosomes and genes that lead to certain gonads, internal and external genitalia, and physiological hormones. Being a man or a woman holds broader meaning, with cultural concepts of masculinity and femininity coming into play."

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/sex-gender-and-why-differences-matter/2008-07



"'Sex' and 'gender' are often used interchangeably, despite having different meanings:

Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society."

https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html



"Sex is a biological trait that is determined by the specific sex chromosomes inherited from one’s parents. In humans, male sex is determined (with a few exceptions) by the presence of the Y chromosome. A gene on the Y chromosome directs the differentiation of the fetal gonads into testes, resulting in the production of testosterone — which affects many of the body’s tissues — early in development. People with one X and one Y chromosome, or variants like XXY or XYY, are typically male, while those who have solely X chromosomes are usually female. People have a sex; animals have a sex; all tissues, including the fetal placenta, have a sex; even individual cells have a sex.

Gender, on the other hand, is socially, culturally and personally defined. It includes how individuals see themselves (gender identity), how others perceive them and expect them to behave (gender norms), and the interactions (gender relations) that they have with others. Often one’s gender aligns with one’s sex: Men tend to assume more masculine behaviors and traits, and to be seen as masculine by others around them, for example. But not always. Increasingly, researchers like Stefanick and Schiebinger are realizing that both men and women exhibit a spectrum of gender traits that aren’t purely masculine or feminine."

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017sp...-not-the-same-thing-influence-our-health.html



"Gender, according to the Global Health 50/50 definition, refers to the socially constructed norms that impose and determine roles, relationships, and positional power for all people across their lifetime. Gender interacts with sex, the biological and physical characteristics that define women, men, and those with intersex identities. Gender is not a binary term. It includes the understanding that in many people, traits of masculinity or femininity coexist and are expressed to different degrees. Gender attributes are fluid; more than two thirds of women and men report gender-related characteristics traditionally attributed to the opposite sex. In transgender people, gender identity differs with the sex they were assigned at birth. So far, transgender people have generally been underrepresented in clinical studies to date, although this underrepresentation is changing. Gender is an equally important variable as biological sex in human health, and influences the behaviour of communities, clinicians, and patients. Gender roles represent the behavioural norms applied to men and women in society, which influence individuals' everyday actions, expectations, and experiences, including diet, perceived stress, smoking, and physical activity, and affect health and disease susceptibility. Gender identity describes the fluidity of how a person perceives oneself as a woman or a man, which affects feelings and behaviours. Gender relations refer to how we interact with or are treated by people, on the basis of our ascribed gender. Institutionalised gender reflects the distribution of power between men and women in the political, educational, and social institutions in society and shapes social norms that define, perpetuate, and often justify different expectations and opportunities for women and men."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31561-0/fulltext



And then read this medical paper in full (pdf):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...gg.2017.0005&usg=AOvVaw2nmY157Yd9ReuFyTQF5KK-



And then..... stop asking this stupid question (for which the answer was obvious long ago to anyone who knows anything about the subject and who also wishes to debate/discuss in good faith)

 

[LondonJohn]

Which ignores recent history. eg from 2017

You're quoting a tentative suggestion made, three years ago, during the consultation period for the 2021 census. That suggestion obviously hasn't survived the process. I don't really know what your point is.

 

[Collin237]

Please explain what "trans rights" are, and why IGLYO's actions are an attack on them..

Trans rights, for a child, are the same as any other special-need rights. A child with any kind of special need deserves a life planned by a consensus between them, their parents, and reputable specialists.

If a child is questioning their gender, it's an unfair imposition for a "liberal" organization to pressure them into accepting transitional programs, just as much as for a "conservative" organization to pressure them into declining transitional programs.

 

[Sherkeu]

Jehovah.


"First though, it is necessary to point out that the terms sex and gender are not synonyms. Sex refers to the biological differences between males and females. Gender refers to the continuum of complex psychosocial self-perceptions, attitudes, and expectations people have about members of both sexes. Even the terms male and female, man and woman are not interchangeable. What it means to be male or female originates from physical characteristics derived from sex chromosomes and genes that lead to certain gonads, internal and external genitalia, and physiological hormones. Being a man or a woman holds broader meaning, with cultural concepts of masculinity and femininity coming into play."

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/sex-gender-and-why-differences-matter/2008-07



"'Sex' and 'gender' are often used interchangeably, despite having different meanings:

Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society."

https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html



"Sex is a biological trait that is determined by the specific sex chromosomes inherited from one’s parents. In humans, male sex is determined (with a few exceptions) by the presence of the Y chromosome. A gene on the Y chromosome directs the differentiation of the fetal gonads into testes, resulting in the production of testosterone — which affects many of the body’s tissues — early in development. People with one X and one Y chromosome, or variants like XXY or XYY, are typically male, while those who have solely X chromosomes are usually female. People have a sex; animals have a sex; all tissues, including the fetal placenta, have a sex; even individual cells have a sex.

Gender, on the other hand, is socially, culturally and personally defined. It includes how individuals see themselves (gender identity), how others perceive them and expect them to behave (gender norms), and the interactions (gender relations) that they have with others. Often one’s gender aligns with one’s sex: Men tend to assume more masculine behaviors and traits, and to be seen as masculine by others around them, for example. But not always. Increasingly, researchers like Stefanick and Schiebinger are realizing that both men and women exhibit a spectrum of gender traits that aren’t purely masculine or feminine."

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017sp...-not-the-same-thing-influence-our-health.html



"Gender, according to the Global Health 50/50 definition, refers to the socially constructed norms that impose and determine roles, relationships, and positional power for all people across their lifetime. Gender interacts with sex, the biological and physical characteristics that define women, men, and those with intersex identities. Gender is not a binary term. It includes the understanding that in many people, traits of masculinity or femininity coexist and are expressed to different degrees. Gender attributes are fluid; more than two thirds of women and men report gender-related characteristics traditionally attributed to the opposite sex. In transgender people, gender identity differs with the sex they were assigned at birth. So far, transgender people have generally been underrepresented in clinical studies to date, although this underrepresentation is changing. Gender is an equally important variable as biological sex in human health, and influences the behaviour of communities, clinicians, and patients. Gender roles represent the behavioural norms applied to men and women in society, which influence individuals' everyday actions, expectations, and experiences, including diet, perceived stress, smoking, and physical activity, and affect health and disease susceptibility. Gender identity describes the fluidity of how a person perceives oneself as a woman or a man, which affects feelings and behaviours. Gender relations refer to how we interact with or are treated by people, on the basis of our ascribed gender. Institutionalised gender reflects the distribution of power between men and women in the political, educational, and social institutions in society and shapes social norms that define, perpetuate, and often justify different expectations and opportunities for women and men."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31561-0/fulltext



And then read this medical paper in full (pdf):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...gg.2017.0005&usg=AOvVaw2nmY157Yd9ReuFyTQF5KK-



And then..... stop asking this stupid question (for which the answer was obvious long ago to anyone who knows anything about the subject and who also wishes to debate/discuss in good faith)

These are interesting definitions of the non-binary continuum of diversity in gender. Nothing here says transwomen are women. It is supposed to be some societal acceptance and agreement that the behaviors conform as belonging to that gender and the social norms within it. Your definitions here make it a two way street.

I will say that for females, a male claiming a female gender based on his visual transformation is not enough. Saying he wants to be treated as female is not enough. Acting 'feminine' is not enough and is sometimes just insulting. That is just window dressing. There is soooooo much more to being a female- and all of the diversity within our own sex. Some transwomen will pass the bar but so many today won't and should clearly be excluded. I would not expect someone who is NOT female to understand how we know the difference. But we do.

As the bulk of the gender that has the responsibility and burden of proposed unconditional acceptance, shouldn't it be the females of the culture whose opinions matter the most? Or do you think you have a good understanding of female internal thoughts among all the diversity in our population and what we should accept as 'woman'?

If you want me to accpet that men who want to socially behave as women....sure. Done. But to say they ARE women because they said so and took some steps in that direction? Nope. They are their own unique part of the spectrum and should be accepted as just that.

 

[Collin237]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...gg.2017.0005&usg=AOvVaw2nmY157Yd9ReuFyTQF5KK-

That's a strange article. It seems to be saying that the sole distinction between sex and gender is whether an attribute is autopeic to an individual or in relation with society. That would mean that gender dysphoria doesn't make someone transgender. Conversely, it would mean that, for example, a woman who's fortunate enough to acquire a job in a very male-dominant profession would be considered a trans man.

 

[The Atheist]

I'm loving this - please watch your pronouns: https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/1...ve-anxiety-for-lgbtqia-community-in-workplace

I'll do a deal with the LGBTQIA+?~E community.

I'll start using your correct pronouns when you stop with the "cis" gender rubbish.

 

[Collin237]

I'm loving this - please watch your pronouns: https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/1...ve-anxiety-for-lgbtqia-community-in-workplace

I'll do a deal with the LGBTQIA+?~E community.

I'll start using your correct pronouns when you stop with the "cis" gender rubbish.

So you're protesting against left-wing Political Correctness by insisting on right-wing Political Correctness?

ETA: Why is a company that conducts business in both English and Maori making a fuss about English grammar only? Isn't that rather ethnocentric?

 

[lionking]

I'm loving this - please watch your pronouns: https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/1...ve-anxiety-for-lgbtqia-community-in-workplace

I'll do a deal with the LGBTQIA+?~E community.

I'll start using your correct pronouns when you stop with the "cis" gender rubbish.

Oh dear. How long will it be until misgendering will be a criminal offence (if it isn’t already in some weird and wonderful part of the world)?

Will we see infractions here for calling Boudicca “he”? It wouldn’t surprise.

 

[Sherkeu]

I'm loving this - please watch your pronouns: https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/1...ve-anxiety-for-lgbtqia-community-in-workplace

I'll do a deal with the LGBTQIA+?~E community.

I'll start using your correct pronouns when you stop with the "cis" gender rubbish.

Cis-gender doesn't even exist really. No one has the exact same gender as their sex if it is all on a continuum of masculine and feminine traits that co-exist in the same person. Gender is now something that needs to be applied different aspects of a person.

I am outing myself as a male-gendered shopper. (don't like shopping and have no clue why many women like to 'take a look' window shopping. Shopping with men ends up with 10 minutes of getting what I need, then lunch! Perfect.)
It's all getting very fuzzy, so that the labels people want are meaningless.

 

[lionking]

Cis-gender doesn't even exist really. No one has the exact same gender as their sex if it is all on a continuum of masculine and feminine traits that co-exist in the same person. Gender is now something that needs to be applied different aspects of a person.

I am outing myself as a male-gendered shopper. (don't like shopping and have no clue why many women like to 'take a look' window shopping. Shopping with men ends up with 10 minutes of getting what I need, then lunch! Perfect.)
It's all getting very fuzzy, so that the labels people want are meaningless.

Good call. I am a female-gendered lover of musicals and dance competitions.

This gendering thing is fun.

 

[Sherkeu]

Good call. I am a female-gendered lover of musicals and dance competitions.

This gendering thing is fun.

That's awesome...You do you my gaygirlymanfriendbutreallyonlyformusicalsanddance!!! We all have our own gender pockets to inhabit!!!

I suppose my very own kiddo could be a male-gendered athlete if I consider all her court aggressiveness and trash talking those female-gendered teammates for not backing her up. (I would have to ignore her cartwheels and dance twirls on court though)

https://flic.kr/p/2kBRfmz https://www.flickr.com/photos/155114068@N02/

https://flic.kr/p/2kBVzeF https://www.flickr.com/photos/155114068@N02/


Even now, the boys in the class above hers consider her an honorary boy-gender...no other girls got invited to paintball wars!! (and yes, the 2 boys to the left are a year older, but puberty hasnt really hit them yet...plus I look the same standing next to their moms)
https://flic.kr/p/2krCUTq https://www.flickr.com/photos/155114068@N02/


And in all seriousness, it is girls like mine that get roped into thinking they are trans by things they see on the internet, especially if they get to a stage where they are uncomfortable with body changes. Parents are waking up to this issue more and more, especially for the females. But that is another topic I suppose.

 

[caveman1917]

Still nothing from these "scores of medical experts" I see

Yes exactly, not a single expert being quoted in LJ's link - as opposed to my earlier link which does quote several clinical researchers.

 

[caveman1917]

Jehovah.

{...}

In typical woo fashion, when pressed on a point just try to dazzle the audience by throwing out tons of links which don't even address the point.