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[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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The more I think about it, the more I think that a transwoman cannot be a woman, both in terms of biology and in terms of valid lived experience.

If she transitions in adulthood, then all of her formative experiences, all of her socialization from childhood to maturity, was based on a male social paradigm. She was not raised under the influence of social stereotypes and expectations for girls and women. She was not grouped with other girls and sharing experiences with them from a girl's perspective. She did not experience puberty as a woman. She did not experience the onset of menses - an experience almost all born women have in common.

She experienced childhood, puberty, and coming-of-age as a male. Likely a profoundly uncomfortable male. Likely unhappy in their own skin. But these are not a female's experiences. A transman has no way of knowing how a woman feels, or that their own feelings are the feelings of a woman. And the more I think about it, the more I think that a transwoman's feelings cannot be the feelings of a born woman.

I can believe I'm Napoleon all I want. I can insist all I want that my Napoleonity is a valid lived experience. But unless I was born in Corsica, gave revolutionaries a taste of the grapeshot, invaded Russia and lived to tell the tale, conquered Spain, and lost to Wellington at Waterloo... I do not have a valid lived experience of being Napoleon. I'm sorry, but I just don't. I have a valid lived experience of something. But while it's real to me, it probably shouldn't be binding on society, nor entitle me to any rights or privileges.
 
Elaedith said:
Transphobia (in practice): Disagreement with tenets of gender identity ideology on logical, practical, philosophical or scientific grounds. See heresy, blasphemy, etc.

Surely being suspicious of somebody claiming to be a transwoman and not wanting them in a female single-sex space because they don't look female enough would not qualify.

For example, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13241378&postcount=1663

In this case I'm guessing that having a moustache is not making enough effort.
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That isn't exactly a "Didnt bother shaving the last few days" sort of mustache though.

But for most, it must take some significant time and effort just to leave the house.

I don't think I'd make it as a trans woman. Way too much work. Or I'd go 'guy mode' most of the time. But then I wouldnt really be living as a woman. Would I count still?
I didn't even brush my hair today...just tied it up in a messy knot.
I plan to shave my legs in April. That's my level of 'don't care' time management these days.

What do the lazy trans women do?
 
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theprestige said:
The more I think about it, the more I think that a transwoman cannot be a woman, both in terms of biology and in terms of valid lived experience.

If she transitions in adulthood, then all of her formative experiences, all of her socialization from childhood to maturity, was based on a male social paradigm. She was not raised under the influence of social stereotypes and expectations for girls and women. She was not grouped with other girls and sharing experiences with them from a girl's perspective. She did not experience puberty as a woman. She did not experience the onset of menses - an experience almost all born women have in common.

She experienced childhood, puberty, and coming-of-age as a male. Likely a profoundly uncomfortable male. Likely unhappy in their own skin. But these are not a female's experiences. A transman has no way of knowing how a woman feels, or that their own feelings are the feelings of a woman. And the more I think about it, the more I think that a transwoman's feelings cannot be the feelings of a born woman.

I can believe I'm Napoleon all I want. I can insist all I want that my Napoleonity is a valid lived experience. But unless I was born in Corsica, gave revolutionaries a taste of the grapeshot, invaded Russia and lived to tell the tale, conquered Spain, and lost to Wellington at Waterloo... I do not have a valid lived experience of being Napoleon. I'm sorry, but I just don't. I have a valid lived experience of something. But while it's real to me, it probably shouldn't be binding on society, nor entitle me to any rights or privileges.
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Trans women were/are always women, that's what you don't understand. I was a woman who was assigned a male gender/sex based on my genitals and the attempt was made to socialize me as a male, but it was a failure because I never accepted it.

By transitioning I'm simply correcting an error that was made early on in my life.
 
Actually I'm beginning that secondary and tertiary characteristics are much more important, for applying social norms. Historically we haven't needed to codify explicit rules for allowing or blocking access. It turns out that we're actually pretty good at distinguishing a man in a dress from a woman in trousers.

And yes, a dedicated disguise artist could certainly pass. But I mean, really pass. Like if can slide into the women's locker room without triggering an uncanny valley reaction, more power to you. You're an honorary woman until you get caught.

And yes, some people just don't have distinctive secondary and tertiary characteristics. Sometimes they end up "passing" by accident. Some, like Twiggy and David Bowie, put their androgyny to work.

What Boudicca is calling for is ongoing segregation, but the erasure of every sex-derived indicator our society has evolved to make that segregation possible. And with nothing at all to replace it.
 
Boudicca90 said:
Not necessarily. Sex is more than chromosomes and reproductive organs.
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Is this a popular opinion?
I cannot find anything that would support it.

The science hasn't found anything as yet in trans human development that matches 'female'. There may be some things unique or common to trans women....but not an actual 'this part is the female part" type of thing- sex determinate genetics, hormone imbalances, or anything else.

If you have the normal XY instructional DNA that developed your body, then the body cannot be the a-typical part in the process. Something else interferes.

Hormones in-utero was my last guess since males need 4 or 5 'timed bursts' of testosterone. Females don't have anything like that. We are sort of the 'absence' of it. So the default is female, but the XY triggers changes in gene expression to be male. You and I have few differences in total genes present, but there would be large differences in gene expression. (30% or so if I recall)

What's your theory?
 
I think I want to kill myself. Nah, not really. It's quite easy to call trans-men or -women by whatever they wish. It ought to be equally easy to accept that trans-men or -women have not always been such, and that they ought to be okay with that, too.
 
Boudicca90 said:
Trans women were/are always women, that's what you don't understand. I was a woman who was assigned a male gender/sex based on my genitals and the attempt was made to socialize me as a male, but it was a failure because I never accepted it.

By transitioning I'm simply correcting an error that was made early on in my life.
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I know a guy who's been diagnosed with schizophrenia, by more than one doctor. He's convinced they're wrong, and refuses treatment. To him, their diagnosis is a failure because he doesn't accept it.

I've known more than one person who suffers from bipolar disorder. When they're Up, they're convinced that the diagnosis is mistaken, and that they're fine without medication. I lost a friend to suicide that way..

Besides, there's still the problem of your valid lived experience. Whatever it is, it isn't the experience of a born woman. However you were socialized, it wasn't as a woman. Some of those core formative experiences aren't yours, and never could be. Puberty, menses, the soft bigotry of low expectations for women - these will never be part of your history. You have your own struggles, but they are not the valid lived struggles of born women. It's kind of offensive for you to claim solidarity with a group of people who have literally nothing in common with you.
 
theprestige said:
I know a guy who's been diagnosed with schizophrenia, by more than one doctor. He's convinced they're wrong, and refuses treatment. To him, their diagnosis is a failure because he doesn't accept it.

I've known more than one person who suffers from bipolar disorder. When they're Up, they're convinced that the diagnosis is mistaken, and that they're fine without medication. I lost a friend to suicide that way..

Besides, there's still the problem of your valid lived experience. Whatever it is, it isn't the experience of a born woman. However you were socialized, it wasn't as a woman. Some of those core formative experiences aren't yours, and never could be. Puberty, menses, the soft bigotry of low expectations for women - these will never be part of your history. You have your own struggles, but they are not the valid lived struggles of born women. It's kind of offensive for you to claim solidarity with a group of people who have literally nothing in common with you.
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I don't give a **** what you find "offensive". This isn't the first time you've compared being transgender to a mental illness and I find that offensive.
 
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Boudicca90 said:
I don't give a **** what you find "offensive". This isn't the first time you've compared being transgender to a mental illness and I find that offensive.
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I might have the wrong person, Boudicca90, but wasn't it you that went all toxically masculine a while back? You make it clear that you don't give a toss. Good. Didn't you also admit to being a bit mentally up the creek a while back. Also good.
 
d4m10n said:
Hate to be pedantic (LOL) but what exactly should "female" be taken to mean herein the thread?

I thought females were born with ova and uteri and such like...?
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At this point I'm pretty sure that Boudicca would prefer that there be no word to distinguish biological sex from psychological or social gender. A society cannot have a a concept if they have no word for that concept. I'm pretty sure that's the TRA endgame, here.

I wouldn't be surprised if we were to find this principle elucidated in Orwell's playbook. In Goebbles' playbook, too.
 
Boudicca90 said:
I don't give a **** what you find "offensive". This isn't the first time you've compared being transgender to a mental illness and I find that offensive.
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Dude. You have XY genes and SRY expression. This is a hard binary divide.. My opinion isn't your problem. The opinion of your own biology is your problem.
 
theprestige said:
Dude. You have XY genes and SRY expression. This is a hard binary divide.. My opinion isn't your problem. The opinion of your own biology is your problem.
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No, transphobes like you and the others in this thread are my ******* problem, "dude"!

I don't care what you think of me because we will win out in the end. You can either accept it or get run over by social progress like all the other bigots throughout history, your choice.

I am a woman and I am female and more and more governments are agreeing with me and giving us equal rights to cisgender people, deal with it.
 
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Boudicca90 said:
No, transphobes like you and the others in this thread are my ******* problem, "dude"!

I don't care what you think of me because we will win out in the end. You can either accept it or get run over by social progress like all the other bigots throughout history, your choice.

I am a woman and I am female and more and more governments are agreeing with me and giving us equal rights to cisgender people, deal with it.
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Name one thing you have in common with born women, other than your conviction that you're a born woman.
 
Boudicca90 said:
Not necessarily. Sex is more than chromosomes and reproductive organs.
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Apparently it isn't "more" than that, in your view of things. It's other than that. The ova and uteri aren't really significant, as best as I can tell from your statements. It's the internal concept that matters. Right?
 
Boudicca90 said:
Trans women were/are always women, that's what you don't understand. I was a woman who was assigned a male gender/sex based on my genitals and the attempt was made to socialize me as a male, but it was a failure because I never accepted it.

By transitioning I'm simply correcting an error that was made early on in my life.
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Your view isn't shared by others in this thread, including people who are staunch supporters of transgender rights. Earlier I was told that gender and gender identity, which are the definitive characteristics of womanhood and manhood, can change. A person can be a man, then a woman, then a man again.

For those people, it wasn't a mistake that was made. It was a condition that changed.

Or so I'm told.
 
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