[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[TurkeysGhost]

I agree that a push to just general more standards of privacy are a good, but I see that as more a parallel discussion to this one then a core of it.

We'll still have some forms of segregation (it doesn't touch the sports sub-issue at all for instance).

If you're on the crew of a nuclear powered sub you ain't getting anywhere the level of privacy needed for this to just not be an issue anytime real soon.

Joining the military often means a general sacrifice in personal dignities and liberties. I don't think it's really applicable comparison for any normal circumstance.

Most people aren't pissing into water bottles and burning off their **** in giant diesel fires.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Joining the military often means a general sacrifice in personal dignities and liberties.

True way more people have seen my dick then people who I wanted to see my dick, that's for sure.

But that was just an example. I don't see us as a society achieving a level of privacy to uncenter this discussion off its axis.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

True way more people have seen my dick then people who I wanted to see my dick, that's for sure.

But that was just an example. I don't see us as a society achieving a level of privacy to uncenter this discussion off its axis.

I don't know that personal privacy, specifically in the context of gym showers and changing rooms, is really that tall of an order.

New construction is often built with individual shower stalls. Retrofitting existing buildings with privacy stalls or even cheap shower curtains isn't a huge ask.

If that story is at all representative of students today, the showers are practically unused in their current configuration. It's a failed system if that's the case.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Well you have more faith in "Well they'll finally be happy when we give them what they claim they want" then I do.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Well you have more faith in "Well they'll finally be happy when we give them what they claim they want" then I do.

I don't know who "they" is in this context.

The reporting in this story I linked is pretty consistent with my schooling experience. Nobody in my middleschool gym classes ever used the communal showers during my gym classes. Nobody on my hockey teams ever did either. I'd always just deal with being sweaty and shower at home. Kids would change into fresh shirts and hose themselves down with Axe body spray.

Schoolkids are notoriously mean spirited. It should be no surprise that students would rather smell like BO covered with perfume than strip nude in the showers.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't know who "they" is in this context.

Transgender people. Ya know, the topic of the thread.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Transgender people. Ya know, the topic of the thread.

That wasn't meant as a gotcha, since I've been mentioning school kids specifically.

My understanding is that trans people don't want to be treated as some freakish "other", sent off to some broom closet or staff bathroom to be isolated from their peers. I also think they probably have a stronger sense of body anxiety than pretty much any other group.

I don't know why you think they'd be unhappy with privacy stalls going into locker rooms, so long as they weren't being singled out for special treatment.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That wasn't meant as a gotcha, since I've been mentioning school kids specifically.

My understanding is that trans people don't want to be treated as some freakish "other", sent off to some broom closet or staff bathroom to be isolated from their peers. I also think they probably have a stronger sense of body anxiety than pretty much any other group.

I don't know why you think they'd be unhappy with privacy stalls going into locker rooms, so long as they weren't being singled out for special treatment.

All I'm saying is if you asked every single transperson on this planet what they wanted, compiled a list, found a genie, had the genie move the slider on reality itself for every single thing they claimed they wanted to "True"... this discussion would not end. Plenty, many, perhaps even most would be satisfied, but enough wouldn't be that this discussion would continue on pretty much the same level it does now.

"I want to be a special exception to the rules because it makes feel unique" is a factor in some of this. And you can't fix that by accomodation, pretty much by definition

And yes this is true for other agents in this discussion as well, not just the trans people. I question whether a degree of "safe" for women really exists that will satisfy everyone as well.

Let's be honest here. No discussion of this level exists without a tiny fringe whose problem is "I want there to be a problem."

 

[Sherkeu]

I'm sort of done with the whole bathroom thing. It is not even the largest concern in terms of rights. It just seems to be the most common experience since everyone has to use them.

That said, so many of these kids have phones on constantly, like another attached body part, and get addicted to them, take selfies, etc...that individual privacy seems inevitable to protect against inadvertent (or potentially deliberate) exposure, no matter what genitals are in there. I feel bad for these kids today in that back in my day an embarrassing thing was over and done...now it can be FOREVER.
We have all seen those photos where a person takes a photo of something seemingly innocuous, like the coffee table they just refinished, and accidentally catches their naked form in a mirror somewhere.

My daughters school does these facebook live things this year for school speeches, performances, dance recitals, etc.... I sent them a letter asking that these be moved to a private school server and not uploaded to a public facebook page. It provides much more content control if something should happen, like a kid farting at a speech, or a wardrobe malfunction. Tender ages call for protections.

 

[Thermal]

Taco related:

So, I was in Toluca a few years back, and one day we went out for lunch to an authentic place, i.e. one where there weren't any Anglos eating. It was definitely a place for locals. A "taco", was a tortilla, flat, with a pile of stuff in the middle. The "stuff" was generally ground meat and shredded cheese. You could fold it yourself and eat it, but it was served just sitting there on your plate.

A "quesadilla" was exactly the same thing, but smaller.

And you could order a "quesadilla" "sin queso". That made no sense to me.

Is this how a "taco" would normally be served, and doesn't a quesadilla kind of imply that there ought to be queso? What't the explanation for this.

Risky Click of the Day, considering the thread subject.

 

[d4m10n]

New construction is often built with individual shower stalls. Retrofitting existing buildings with privacy stalls or even cheap shower curtains isn't a huge ask.

I attended a postsecondary military academy in Colorado during a significant stretch of my misspent youth (in the mid 90s) and about halfway through my tenure there the powers-that-be elected to retrofit the open bay showers with privacy dividers and curtains. Curiously enough, the upperclassmen almost universally disdained the curtains, having been previously conditioned to single-sex social nudity. Underclassmen nearly always opted to use the curtains, however, and I imagine personal privacy became the rule rather than the exception within a year or two.

I share this anecdote merely to say that people are surprisingly adaptable, when they need to be, even when it comes to nudity and privacy.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Hey ST... You said this in a different thread:

Openly mocking trans people is common.

Can you provide some examples? I'm sure there are some out there, but I've not seen anything that I would consider to be common.

Possible exception being Yaniv, who isn't so much "mocked" as "derided as a predator".

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm sort of done with the whole bathroom thing. It is not even the largest concern in terms of rights. It just seems to be the most common experience since everyone has to use them.

That said, so many of these kids have phones on constantly, like another attached body part, and get addicted to them, take selfies, etc...that individual privacy seems inevitable to protect against inadvertent (or potentially deliberate) exposure, no matter what genitals are in there. I feel bad for these kids today in that back in my day an embarrassing thing was over and done...now it can be FOREVER.
We have all seen those photos where a person takes a photo of something seemingly innocuous, like the coffee table they just refinished, and accidentally catches their naked form in a mirror somewhere.

My daughters school does these facebook live things this year for school speeches, performances, dance recitals, etc.... I sent them a letter asking that these be moved to a private school server and not uploaded to a public facebook page. It provides much more content control if something should happen, like a kid farting at a speech, or a wardrobe malfunction. Tender ages call for protections.

I agree that these threads seem to have been dominated (at least recently) by the issue of changing rooms etc.

And, lest we forget, the title - and therefore the topic - of these threads is "Discussion: Trans Women are not Women" (a title which is inherently offensive to trans people and trans rights campaigners, since it explicitly negates the very kernel of their identity, but anyhoo....).

And also - just for information dontcha know (since anything more than this would be an improper appeal to authority ) - it's probably worth noting that within the understanding of DSM5, the WHO, the UN and many major World governments, trans women are women. The only issue to sort out is quite how that rather intangible and metaphysical concept is applied in practice.

 

[Joe Random]

<...>

Possible exception being Yaniv, who isn't so much "mocked" as "derided as a predator".

Mocking Yaniv for being trans would be like having a laugh at John Wayne Gacy for his ****** clown paintings. Not exactly first in the line of concerns.

 

[Boudicca90]

The girls who have been told that they don't have a choice about whether or not they are seen by a penis-haver while naked haven't been harmed? Would you consider it harm to you if you were told that you have no choice and men were free to look at you while you're naked whether you like it or not?

The female prisoners who were raped by the penises of transwomen placed in their cells with them weren't harmed? Would you consider it harm to you if you were raped by a cisman placed in a confined area with you against your will?

Issues like these have to do with the behavior of the perpetrators, what genitals they have is irrelevant. Actions like rape or invasion of privacy are wrong no matter who does it.

 

[Boudicca90]

How do you, personally, distinguish between a transwoman who isn't passing and a cisman?

I would certainly view someone making no attempt at passing with skepticism (like the Jude Law example), it depends on the situation.

But "isn't passing" is different than making no attempt at it. I have many older trans female friends who don't pass because they waited too long to transition. They still make an attempt to pass, but it is still clear that they are transgender. They shouldn't be discriminated against just because HRT can only do so much and they are too poor to afford surgeries.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Hey ST... You said this in a different thread:



Can you provide some examples? I'm sure there are some out there, but I've not seen anything that I would consider to be common.

Possible exception being Yaniv, who isn't so much "mocked" as "derided as a predator".

Sure. Google "I identify as an attack helicopter". How many hits does that get? Are you kidding me with this?

until very recently, trans people were a very common butt of jokes in mainstream entertainment. Now, it's mostly gauche in the general public, but still extremely common in bigoted circles.

 

[theprestige]

I would certainly view someone making no attempt at passing with skepticism (like the Jude Law example), it depends on the situation.

That seems transphobic, to be honest. Why should any transsexual have to attempt to "pass" as anything other than their own self-identity?

Is gatekeeping people based on their conformity to feminine stereotypes really a goal we should be working towards?

Is that how you know you're a woman? Because you're trying to conform to some stereotype of womanhood? Of course not. Why would it make sense for other people to judge you on that basis? It's not like you'd tolerate for a moment if anyone said, "Boudicca, you aren't convincing enough, you're not trying hard enough, you don't count as a woman yet."

 

[Meadmaker]

I would certainly view someone making no attempt at passing with skepticism (like the Jude Law example), it depends on the situation.

But "isn't passing" is different than making no attempt at it. I have many older trans female friends who don't pass because they waited too long to transition. They still make an attempt to pass, but it is still clear that they are transgender. They shouldn't be discriminated against just because HRT can only do so much and they are too poor to afford surgeries.

How do you, personally, distinguish between a transwoman who isn't passing and a cisman?

 

[Boudicca90]

That seems transphobic, to be honest. Why should any transsexual have to attempt to "pass" as anything other than their own self-identity?

Is gatekeeping people based on their conformity to feminine stereotypes really a goal we should be working towards?

Is that how you know you're a woman? Because you're trying to conform to some stereotype of womanhood? Of course not. Why would it make sense for other people to judge you on that basis? It's not like you'd tolerate for a moment if anyone said, "Boudicca, you aren't convincing enough, you're not trying hard enough, you don't count as a woman yet."

Hilarious. You clearly don't understand what transphobia is. And "transsexual" is an outdated term, fyi.