Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Lithrael]

lIf Yaniv wants to enter a women's bathroom or changing room, can he be prevented from doing so?

The same way you prevent a famously nasty abusive perv who’s a natural born woman from doing so. If there isn’t currently a decent framework for that then it’s high time we built one. Wherever the slippery slope starts, someone who flat out says they want to go in there to perv on people and root around in trash cans should absolutely be possible to be legally barred. I don’t see where gender has to come into it at all. Just add Twitter bragging about being perverted in public spaces to public indecency or something.

I mean, don’t public establishments get to bar people who won’t stop doing business outside the toilets, from the premesis? Whatever you use for that, use it for this.

ETA: y’all are talking like womanhood is a magic bathroom pass. My god, don’t let the murderer get into the ladies’ room! Its like a tiny Swiss Embassy in there! We’ll be powerless! ...unless we can prove the murderer is Not A Real Woman!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yaniv is not yet done testing the limits of Canadian human rights laws.

Filing a lawsuit proves nothing. That's the point. Anyone with the ability to fill out paperwork can file a lawsuit. You could sue me for infringing on your civil rights under the theory that I'm actually 3 sentient cacti stacked up in a trench coat using the computer to mine the metal from your teeth fillings. This isn't hyperbole, absolute incoherent nonsense gets filed everyday.

There's no reason to consider stunt lawsuits as meaningful data points unless they are successful. Hand wringing about go-nowhere meritless lawsuits from a known vexatious litigant is a prime example of nutpicking.

 

[Manger Douse]

Yaniv's litigation failed. Why is she still relevant?

Did Yabiv pay the money he owed? Are the business he ruined back in business? The Muslim women he directed Team Barbed Wire Baseball Bats and Rape Threats towards doing ok mentally?

 

[Boudicca90]

Jessica Yaniv is a piece of **** and she just seems to be a professional provocateur and troll, but she is a woman and should not be misgendered just because you don't like her.

She also doesn't represent all trans women, as much as the transphobes here like to use women like her or Karen White to smear the rest of us. Believe me, I wish she wasn't doing what she's been doing either, but you can't use a few bad people to try to denigrate the rest of us just like you can't any other minority.

 

[Boudicca90]

Jessica Yaniv is a piece of **** and she just seems to be a professional provocateur and troll, but she is a woman and should not be misgendered just because you don't like her.

She also doesn't represent all trans women, as much as the transphobes here like to use women like her or Karen White to smear the rest of us. Believe me, I wish she wasn't doing what she's been doing either, but you can't use a few bad people to try to denigrate the rest of us just like you can't any other minority.

 

[Manger Douse]

Jessica Yaniv is a piece of **** and she just seems to be a professional provocateur and troll, but she is a woman and should not be misgendered just because you don't like her.



She also doesn't represent all trans women, as much as the transphobes here like to use women like her or Karen White to smear the rest of us. Believe me, I wish she wasn't doing what she's been doing either, but you can't use a few bad people to try to denigrate the rest of us just like you can't any other minority.

You insulted every sportswoman on the planet calling them lazy because they couldn't keep up with men so please spare me your moralising over mis-gendering peadophiles

 

[Meadmaker]

Jessica Yaniv is a piece of **** and she just seems to be a professional provocateur and troll, but she is a woman and should not be misgendered just because you don't like her.

How do you know?

That's meant as a serious question. "Her" behavior that has been pointed out seems very masculine to me. She seems to be performeing the feminine gender role, but it Yaniv's case, it seems very much a performance, not an authentic expression of her inner self.


By the way, I earlier asked about why a ciswoman ought to object to disrobing in the presence of a cisman, but not object to disrobing in the presence of a transwoman. If I recall correctly, I didn't get a straight answer to that, but I think I inferred that the answer would be, "because the transwoman is a woman". Did I get that right, or is there more?

ETA: The problem with "because the transwoman is a woman" was we wanted to avoid the definitional problem. Is there a way to express the thought without relying on terms whose definition is in contention?

 

[Ziggurat]

The same way you prevent a famously nasty abusive perv who’s a natural born woman from doing so. If there isn’t currently a decent framework for that then it’s high time we built one.

That would be nice. But I don't see how you actually do it.

Wherever the slippery slope starts, someone who flat out says they want to go in there to perv on people and root around in trash cans should absolutely be possible to be legally barred. I don’t see where gender has to come into it at all. Just add Twitter bragging about being perverted in public spaces to public indecency or something.

That may stop Yaniv, but it won't stop any other predators. They just won't brag about it on Twitter.

ETA: y’all are talking like womanhood is a magic bathroom pass. My god, don’t let the murderer get into the ladies’ room! Its like a tiny Swiss Embassy in there! We’ll be powerless! ...unless we can prove the murderer is Not A Real Woman!

This isn't an equivalent problem. The thing is, a lot of this predatory behavior which should be prevented is not, strictly speaking, illegal. Or it's not illegal to engage in if you're allowed into those spaces.

 

[Boudicca90]

If people treat you the same way that they treat me, does that mean that I'm not tolerated or accepted? No. The sticking point is "as a woman". That isn't in any way, shape, or form equivalent to Jim Crow. Black people were not demanding to be accepted as white people, they were demanding to be accepted as people. You aren't demanding to be accepted as a person, but as a woman. But I can't make that demand. Why do you get to?

I wasn't making a perfect comparison, just pointing out that negotiating and compromising on civil rights does nothing but kick the can further down the road.

The much more accurate comparison would be to gay rights, since in that case we wanted to be treated with equality to straight people and provided with the same rights and privileges that they enjoy. And I will continue to bring up this comparison because it's accurate. All these arguments you people are making about trans people I have heard all before.

And you can't make that demand because you are a man whereas I am a woman.

 

[Earthborn]

That isn't in any way, shape, or form equivalent to Jim Crow. Black people were not demanding to be accepted as white people, they were demanding to be accepted as people.

I thought they were demanding the end of segregationist policies entirely.

You aren't demanding to be accepted as a person, but as a woman.

Boudicca isn't even demanding the end of the segregation. She is just demanding access based on what she most resembles, like a light-skinned person wanting access to the "white" restroom, or a dark-skinned person wanting access to the "colored" restroom. Not a very radical demand, IMHO.

 

[theprestige]

Is there any reason to believe Yaniv's trans status is insincere?

This is a good question that gets right to the heart of the problem. But let's rephrase it, not as a question, but as a policy statement. And let's make the implied part of the statement explicit:

We cannot bar a self-declared transwoman from a women's locker room unless we have reason to believe their trans status is insincere.

SuburbanTurkey, is this the public policy you would like to see enacted?

If so, what is your criteria for determining that a person's trans status is insincere?

 

[Boudicca90]

You insulted every sportswoman on the planet calling them lazy because they couldn't keep up with men so please spare me your moralising over mis-gendering peadophiles

No, I insulted sportswomen who use transphobia as an excuse to why they lost their competitions.

 

[theprestige]

Filing a lawsuit proves nothing. That's the point. Anyone with the ability to fill out paperwork can file a lawsuit. You could sue me for infringing on your civil rights under the theory that I'm actually 3 sentient cacti stacked up in a trench coat using the computer to mine the metal from your teeth fillings. This isn't hyperbole, absolute incoherent nonsense gets filed everyday.

There's no reason to consider stunt lawsuits as meaningful data points unless they are successful. Hand wringing about go-nowhere meritless lawsuits from a known vexatious litigant is a prime example of nutpicking.

It's not the lawsuits. It's the sexual harassment. It's the driving small businesses out of business.

 

[Ziggurat]

Jessica Yaniv is a piece of **** and she just seems to be a professional provocateur and troll, but she is a woman

I still don't know what your criteria for this is. How do you separate Yaniv from Zuby? I've asked before and you consistently refuse to answer.

And if she qualifies under whatever those criteria are, I don't know why those criteria are the relevant criteria that we should be using.

She also doesn't represent all trans women

I don't think anyone here claims or believes she does. I certainly don't.

But Yaniv is still an example of how sexual predators can exploit the system that you want to put in place. And you don't seem at all interested in doing anything that would stop such exploitation.

Believe me, I wish she wasn't doing what she's been doing either, but you can't use a few bad people to try to denigrate the rest of us just like you can't any other minority.

The funny thing is, I believe Yaniv ISN'T actually trans. So how would I be denigrating trans people by badmouthing Yaniv if I think Yaniv isn't trans? Seems your position does that more than mine. And I've said pretty consistently that I view the problem primarily as cisgender predators pretending to be trans rather than trans people being predators. But again, you haven't indicated that you're even open to taking steps which might actually prevent cisgender predators from exploiting the rights you demand.

 

[Manger Douse]

I thought they were demanding the end of segregationist policies entirely.



Boudicca isn't even demanding the end of the segregation. She is just demanding access based on what she most resembles, like a light-skinned person wanting access to the "white" restroom, or a dark-skinned person wanting access to the "colored" restroom. Not a very radical demand, IMHO.

A masculine looking female is still a female though

 

[theprestige]

Jessica Yaniv is a piece of **** and she just seems to be a professional provocateur and troll, but she is a woman and should not be misgendered just because you don't like her.

She also doesn't represent all trans women, as much as the transphobes here like to use women like her or Karen White to smear the rest of us. Believe me, I wish she wasn't doing what she's been doing either, but you can't use a few bad people to try to denigrate the rest of us just like you can't any other minority.

I actually agree with all of this. The more I think about it, the less I think Yaniv is a good case study for what we're talking about.

On the other hand, it seems you are saying that because she identifies as a woman, we cannot bar her from women's safe spaces. Is that correct?

 

[Joe Random]

Jessica Yaniv is a piece of **** and she just seems to be a professional provocateur and troll, but she is a woman and should not be misgendered just because you don't like her.
<..>

Nope, he is male. Just as you are. Scream your reality denials into your pillow until the wee hours of the morning, until your voice is horse and your sheets are soaked with male tears, it still won't change the truth.

 

[Manger Douse]

No, I insulted sportswomen who use transphobia as an excuse to why they lost their competitions.

No, you insulted all sportswoman because you couldn't admit that male bodies are stronger than womens - can you admit it now?

 

[Boudicca90]

How do you know?

That's meant as a serious question. "Her" behavior that has been pointed out seems very masculine to me. She seems to be performeing the feminine gender role, but it Yaniv's case, it seems very much a performance, not an authentic expression of her inner self.

I don't really see what is specifically "masculine" about her behavior, but trans women don't have to be perfect models of femininity. There are more butch and masculine trans women out there, my ex girlfriend was like that, for example.

By the way, I earlier asked about why a ciswoman ought to object to disrobing in the presence of a cisman, but not object to disrobing in the presence of a transwoman. If I recall correctly, I didn't get a straight answer to that, but I think I inferred that the answer would be, "because the transwoman is a woman". Did I get that right, or is there more?

No, that is correct.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, I insulted sportswomen who use transphobia as an excuse to why they lost their competitions.

Transphobia isn't why male athletes have anatomical advantages over female athletes even after hormone therapy.