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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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theprestige said:
I actually agree with all of this. The more I think about it, the less I think Yaniv is a good case study for what we're talking about.

On the other hand, it seems you are saying that because she identifies as a woman, we cannot bar her from women's safe spaces. Is that correct?
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In her case I believe you can, based on her actions, not who she is. So a women's shelter can look at her public history and determine that other women would not be safe around her.
 
Collin237 said:
You do realize that Lithrael explained exactly what I meant 25 minutes before you posted this, right?
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Lithrael gave an analogy of people bringing up the very worst of a movement to discredit the whole thing.
You then asked me if I accused TRA's of promoting the child porn. I said nothing of 'porn'.
Maybe instead of relying on other posters, you yourself explain to me why you made that leap to such an extreme instead of these twitter-sized posts or having other posters speak for you.

You know what?

Never mind.
Keep it in mind for next time.
My rant was about one specific person who gets way more attention in the sphere of public debate than he ever should have. He should be treated like someone who is a specific danger to children and in need of perhaps a mental health intervention- I don't know his true intentions, nor care if he is trolling. Instead, like so much of the internet he is enabled like piece of entertaining click-bait.

My reaction to it, or rather rant, as I was so incensed that it even could happen without legal recourse, is worth the time it took if just one other parent keeps their vulnerable kids off social media, especially apps and groups aimed at teens, at this moment in time. It's so toxic even without the predators. She knows what to look for and to assume that any girl or boy her age she doesnt know online is some old guy pretending. That is the rule. For now, she finds it funny but does follow it.

The main spaces for these young girls are mostly at home, school, with good friends and they still expect only females in, 'safer' spaces like the showers. Now that one will be a place to 'wonder' about too, even if it never happens, or rarely happens. My job as a parent is to keep her safe and knowledgable about it, in a reasonable way.

I already had to give her the message about water polo. Hated to have to do it, and I really do try to make it NOT scary because most people, all people, are good people just trying to live their lives.
But, I said "There is a new law that some women might be in your lockers that arent fully women yet...they are changing from men (she knows all about the gender thing and has a transboy in her class).
But for now you wont be sure if they are really allowed there or maybe they got in the wrong room. So, If you see a man in your swim lockers, leave right away. Dont worry if you have shampoo on your head or want to grab your phone. Your towel is next to you and that is all you need. Don't engage in conversation, and if they come up and speak to you. Say 'oh hey wait a sec....like you forgot something...then... Just leave. Straight out the door. Don't go to find your friend or your things. Go at about the pace we walked away from that coyote. A confident stride, but not running. Come to me or your Dad if you see us, or go straight to the lobby and stay behind their desk and tell them you have a concern they need to check right away. Most likely it is just a misunderstanding but it happens sometimes and you can let the adults sort it out."

Anyone find anything wrong with my advice to her?
What would you say to your pre-teen girl?
 
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Earthborn said:
I thought they were demanding the end of segregationist policies entirely.

Boudicca isn't even demanding the end of the segregation. She is just demanding access based on what she most resembles, like a light-skinned person wanting access to the "white" restroom, or a dark-skinned person wanting access to the "colored" restroom. Not a very radical demand, IMHO.
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Except that females have historically faced oppression, discrimination and want some female-only spaces. It's "not a very radical demand" only if you are against any sex-based (female) rights.
 
theprestige said:
I actually agree with all of this. The more I think about it, the less I think Yaniv is a good case study for what we're talking about.
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I disagree. Yaniv is certainly an outlier, but is still perfectly illustrative of the basic problem: can you keep sexual predators from accessing female-only intimate spaces in order to engage in predatory behavior? If you can't even solve the problem for such an obvious outlier, how can you possibly deal with less obvious cases of predatory behavior?

On the other hand, it seems you are saying that because she identifies as a woman, we cannot bar her from women's safe spaces. Is that correct?
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I'd love to know the answer to this too.
 
Boudicca90 said:
I don't really see what is specifically "masculine" about her behavior, but trans women don't have to be perfect models of femininity. There are more butch and masculine trans women out there, my ex girlfriend was like that, for example.



No, that is correct.
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She seems to put herself in positions where her genitals will be exposed to an unwilling or reluctant audience. That's classic male exhibitionist/flasher behavior.
 
Boudicca90 said:
I'm not interesting in getting back into the sports debate. And Zuby is just a transphobic man trying to troll people to make a point, there is nothing more to discuss when it comes to him.
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Oh, I fully agree that he's just trolling.

But how do you draw the line between him and yourself? How do you expect other people to draw the line between him and yourself? I've asked you this before, only to be met by silence. The fact that Zuby is so obviously a troll should make it pretty easy to draw a dividing line. And by backing self ID as sacrosanct, you're basically making it impossible to.

So it's not really HIM I'm asking you to discuss.
 
Sherkeu said:
Lithrael gave an analogy of people bringing up the very worst of a movement to discredit the whole thing.
You then asked me if I accused TRA's of promoting the child porn. I said nothing of 'porn'.
Maybe instead of relying on other posters, you yourself explain to me why you made that leap to such an extreme instead of these twitter-sized posts or having other posters speak for you.

You know what?

Never mind.
Keep it in mind for next time.
My rant was about one specific person who gets way more attention in the sphere of public debate than he ever should have. He should be treated like someone who is a specific danger to children and in need of perhaps a mental health intervention- I don't know his true intentions, nor care if he is trolling. Instead, like so much of the internet he is enabled like piece of entertaining click-bait.

My reaction to it, or rather rant, as I was so incensed that it even could happen without legal recourse, is worth the time it took if just one other parent keeps their vulnerable kids off social media, especially apps and groups aimed at teens, at this moment in time. It's so toxic even without the predators. She knows what to look for and to assume that any girl or boy her age she doesnt know online is some old guy pretending. That is the rule. For now, she finds it funny but does follow it.

The main spaces for these young girls are mostly at home, school, with good friends and they still expect females in, 'safer' spaces. Now that one will be a place to 'wonder' about too, even if it never happens. My job as a parent is to keep her safe, in a reasonable way.

I already had to give her the message about water polo. Hated to have to do it, and I really do try to make it NOT scary because most people, all people, are good people just trying to live their lives.
But, I said "There is a new law that some women ight be in your lockers that arent fully women yet...they are changing. But for now you wont be sure if they are really allowed there or maybe they got in the wrong room. So, If you see a man in your swim lockers, leave right away. Dont worry if you have shampoo on your head or want to grab your phone. Your towel is next to you and that is all you need. Don't engage in conversation, and if they come up and speak to you. Say 'oh hey wait a sec....like you forgot something...then... Just leave. Straight out the door. Don't go to find your friend or your things. Go at about the pace we walked away from that coyote. A confident stride, but not running. Come to me or your Dad if you see us, or go straight to the lobby and stay behind their desk and tell them you have a concern they need to check right away. Most likely it is just a misunderstanding but it happens sometimes and you can let the adults sort it out."

Anyone find anything wrong with my advice to her?
What would you say to your pre-teen girl?

I have my opinion on that situation, and I really don't give a flying squirrel fart if someone thinks it's transphobic.
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It's absolutely transphobic and congratulations for passing down prejudice to the next generation! Bravo!

Thankfully kids today are becoming much more accepting of transgender and non-binary people in general.
 
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Jesus Christ we're going to biologically remove the need to the bathroom before we get this settled.
 
Boudicca90 said:
It's absolutely transphobic and way to pass down prejudice to the next generation! Bravo!
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And?

What would YOU say to your pre-teen girl?
Do you think the swim club should talk to the parents, or maybe there should be age restrictions at certain hours?

I know you have seen your penis a million times, but my kid doesn't come across exposed adult male genitalia during her day...or ever, just books, statues and the occasional small kid.

In fact, outside of that locker room, and that special right to access, it is still a crime in California.
 
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theprestige said:
It's not the lawsuits. It's the sexual harassment. It's the driving small businesses out of business.
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Sure, Yaniv is a legal bully and some of likely a predatory threat to her community. Her being trans is incidental to that, and there are no shortage of similar threats that aren't trans.

Nutpicking this bad actor and trying to hold all trans people guilty by association is an unreasonable response to Yaniv.
 
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Sherkeu said:
And?

What yould YOU say to your pre-teen girl?
Do you thin the swim club should talk to the parents, or maybe there should be age restrictions at certain hours?

I know you have seen your penis a million times, but my kid doesnt come across exposed adult male genitalia during her day...or ever, just books, statues and the occasional small kid.

In fact, outside of that locker room, and that special right to access, it is still a crime in California.
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If I had a pre-teen girl, she would definitely be aware of who transgender people are (considering her mother is one) and there wouldn't be a need to have a discussion about this in the first place.

I do think there should be age restrictions at certain hours, because adults shouldn't be disrobing around children period, regardless of gender.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Sure, Yaniv is a legal bully and some of perhaps a predatory threat to her community. Her being trans is incidental to that, and there are no shortage of similar threats that aren't trans.

Nutpicking this bad actor and trying to hold all trans people guilty by association is an unreasonable response to Yaniv.
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No one's doing that. Vaniv was brought up because his actions were made possible by self ID laws in Canada
 
Louden Wilde said:
Except that females have historically faced oppression, discrimination
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Many other groups of people have historically faced opression and discrimination. We don't make seperate restrooms for all of them.
... and want some female-only spaces.
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Some of them. I am sure that if you look hard enough, you can also find quotes from Jim Crow era Black people saying they like having "black-only protected' spaces. Just because some have internalised their own oppression is not sufficient justification for continuing segregation.

It's "not a very radical demand" only if you are against any sex-based (female) rights.
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As a person who is in favour of equal rights, I am glad that such an abhorrent concept is not actually implemented where I live.
 
Ziggurat said:
The thing is, a lot of this predatory behavior which should be prevented is not, strictly speaking, illegal. Or it's not illegal to engage in if you're allowed into those spaces.
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Nevertheless, it seems to me that it’s a lot more straightforward (and more generally useful) to codify appropriate social boundary type behavior and use that as our standard, than to try to keep using Yes I Am/No You Aren’t as our standard while totally ignoring behavior.

I’m not a lawyer so no I don’t know how you do it but it can’t possibly be that much of a challenge. People do these things. And a big chunk of the public would be on board if someone got something halfway sensible looking together.

Think a Good Version of the rules lawyering people did to disenfranchise southern black voters without saying ‘try to keep black people from voting.’ Some of it got struck down later for being too obvious but we’ve still got gerrymandering and plenty of other goodies.
 
theprestige said:
Can a woman at the gym block her from the woman's locker room, based on that woman's understanding of her public history?
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Management almost certainly can. Bad behavior is not a protected class.

Individual people should not be self-deputizing themselves as bathroom police because, push come to shove, they have no authority to deny entry.
 
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