Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Emily's Cat]

I can handle it being phrased that way.

The long-story-short summary of these threads can be expressed as "Most transgender people are very nice people and deserve respect. Females are also humans, and would like to retain their existing rights and safety measures. We need to have some discussion about what the most reasonable compromises are.

...

Also, a lot of really loud and vocal and politically engaged trans-rights activists are complete jerks and/or outright misogynists. Sure would be nice if we could evict them."

 

[Collin237]

You can link to anything that isn't straight up porn or illegal, IIRC. If there's a lot of gore, swearing, or potential nudity, it's expected that you call it out as NSFW.

https://www.newamerica.org/educatio...t-teachers-need-know-do-right-queer-students/

 

[Emily's Cat]

WTF do you think Charlottesville was?

Charlottesville was a political protest (protected under 1st amendment) made by a group of people that I find to hold horrible beliefs (also protected under 1st amendment). They had the appropriate permits for their constitutionally-protected gathering. No matter how much I might dislike their beliefs, they are still protected.

Some among that group engaged in violence. Violence is not a right, and is not protected. Those who engaged in violence or who advocated for direct violence should be prosecuted for their crimes.

I believe they were prosecuted and found guilty.

 

[caveman1917]

DoO you personally know caveman from this "social-anarchist-liberal setting"?

I assume it was some sort of joke because the answer to your question is no, especially since this wasn't on Twitter as Collin said (I'm not on Twitter).

 

[Collin237]

The long-story-short summary of these threads can be expressed as "Most transgender people are very nice people and deserve respect. Females are also humans, and would like to retain their existing rights and safety measures. We need to have some discussion about what the most reasonable compromises are.

...

Also, a lot of really loud and vocal and politically engaged trans-rights activists are complete jerks and/or outright misogynists. Sure would be nice if we could evict them."

I believe in equal-opportunity eviction.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We all need to step back and ask ourselves "Who ever said trans women are women?" I think it was just a rumor, and we've all be gaslighted.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I submit for consideration that that view may be far more common than you think. We've all been arguing from the premise that the debate is being driven by ideology -- only disagreeing on which side it's on. But from what I've been reading on blogs recently, it looks like something far more concrete. Some lobby, some actual bricks-and-mortar lobby, is controlling the dialogue.

Didn't we say something to that effect several pages back - that the lobby is controlling the (borderline insane) dialogue?

Yes, the lobby is controlling the narrative... I submit for consideration that the lobbies are being driven by the interests of AGP males. I'm not saying it's for-sure true. I'm saying it would make a whole lot of it make more sense.

 

[Collin237]

I assume it was some sort of joke because the answer to your question is no, especially since this wasn't on Twitter as Collin said (I'm not on Twitter).

Sorry. Correction noted. I just checked the links, yours was to Google, Damion's was to Twitter.

 

[caveman1917]

Sorry. Correction noted. I just checked the links, yours was to Google, Damion's was to Twitter.

You misunderstood, the cancelling wasn't here with the google link I posted, it was from an entirely unrelated facebook discussion I was having earlier today. It has nothing to do with this forum.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And women who adopted a male persona to escape restrictions and prejudice were really men. One of the reasons that Prof Selina Todd needed bodyguards when giving lectures on campus.

Prof Todd said that transgender activists started making complaints about her on the basis that her teaching of feminist history was “transphobic”.

“My research suggests that women who posed as men in the past were often lesbians seeking to protect themselves, or because they want to do jobs that were only available to men,” she said.

“The first complaint that was made against me was to say that I was transphobic because it would be impossible for a transgender student to be taught by me.”

Also I read somewhere that famous female authors who used a male penname to escape the prejudice of the day actually did this because they were men, and it's denying the existence of trans people to say otherwise.

This is where I end up with some visceral anger on this topic. This is white-washing the history of sexism and oppression that women have faced... and appropriating the women who acted to break out of those confining roles by casting them as being transgender.

 

[Rolfe]

Didn't the TRA faction within SNP recently try to push for the party to disallow any discussion of women's rights at all? All under the guise of being "inclusive"?

It's worse than that. It's part of the new hate crime bill. Concern was expressed that the wording of the bill would criminalise any discussion of trans issues and even statements such as women are adult human females or there are only two sexes. So an amendment was brought forward to clarify specifically that such statements were not criminal.

Then about 25 trans activists in the SNP had a public strop, declared that the SNP was a transphobic organisation and they didn't feel safe and they were leaving. Nicola Sturgeon then posted an extraordinary video on twitter apologising and begging them to come back. (One of the most obnoxious trans activists has just been obsequiously head-hunted back into the party today or at the weekend, in controversial circumstances.) The many many women who have resigned from the party over the lack of support for women's rights have had no response other than a form email thanking them for their past service.

The offending amendment was withdrawn to placate the trans activists so when the bill goes through it may well be a criminal offence in Scotland for anybody to state that a woman is an adult human female, if it offends somebody. The Justice Secretary has also said that private speech will also be covered by the act, and people should definitely be liable for anything said at the dinner table.

I doubt if I'll make it to 30 years in the SNP unless something changes radically very soon. We'll certainly never achieve independence with this shower in charge.

 

[d4m10n]

We all need to step back and ask ourselves "Who ever said trans women are women?"

There are a few instances here in the thread if you scroll back a bit.

For example:

Denying that we are women as much as cisgender women ultimately means there is a limit to how much you will support us.

.

Trans women are women, but that doesn't mean they are identical to cis women, who are also women.

 

[Emily's Cat]

LondonJohn, I'm sorry. Personally I think your reference to the UK Office for National Statistics' definition of sex and gender was good enough to continue the discussion, but this doesn't seem to be the consensus view.

I do think it's a valid criticism that your reference does not actually include a definition of "man" and "woman".

It's marginally sufficient to draw a distinction between sex and gender. It's even vaguely sufficient to draw a distinction between the biological class of females versus the gender roles and expectations of "womanhood". It's not sufficient, however, to support LJ's persistent claim that "woman" has been well-defined by the relevant experts to such a degree that he need not even give his own view, he can merely brush it aside in favor of the "expert medical definition".

So, two different items under discussion

 

[Collin237]

Yes, the lobby is controlling the narrative...

Not "the" lobby, a specific lobby that needs to be tracked down Mueller-style.

I submit for consideration that the lobbies are being driven by the interests of AGP males.

That's metaphysics. What bricks-and-mortar interest (e.g., Denton's Law Firm perhaps) are they driven by?

 

[Joe Random]

My spouse & I have had this discussion. We've concluded that it's not really sexual attraction... it's appreciation of an aesthetically pleasing human form, which isn't limited to appreciation for only the opposite sex.

It's completely possible for me to look at a male anatomy and either appreciate stand-out fitness or acknowledge its general attractiveness. But I personally will never look at a male anatomy and be physically attracted to it.

Cue Zinnia Jones references again ...

 

[plague311]

The offending amendment was withdrawn to placate the trans activists so when the bill goes through it may well be a criminal offence in Scotland for anybody to state that a woman is an adult human female, if it offends somebody. The Justice Secretary has also said that private speech will also be covered by the act, and people should definitely be liable for anything said at the dinner table.

The extremely strange part is that you talk about the genitals of other people enough for this to be an actual problem.

You view this as extremist behavior, but don't seem to view your steadfast stubbornness to just call people what they want to be called, or how they view themselves, as not being extremist. That's some ****** up rationalization right there. By no means unexpected, but definitely ****** up.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well that's a good point.

Honestly, I don't even count Boudicca as an "activist". At least, not when she first started posting here. I think there is probably a LOT of pressure in the trans community to "take sides" and adopt the talking points.

I also think that recognition of biological sex probably is a trigger for her dysphoria, and that led to some very emotionally-driven entrenchment. I can't really blame her for that - I have an emotional stake in this topic as well, and coming up against opposition that I perceive as being misogynistic and derisive of women has shifted me further away from the supportive position I started out in.

I started out not caring at all about bathrooms, and only caring a very tiny bit about changing rooms & showers. The more exposure I've had though, I end up being not supportive of untransitioned transwomen using changing rooms, especially on the basis of self-declaration. And I've become skeptical of restrooms... because it's the thin end of the wedge.

 

[theprestige]

Not "the" lobby, a specific lobby that needs to be tracked down Mueller-style.

Seems like we're pretty clear on the lobby that's driving trans policy in Scotland, at least.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's worse than that. It's part of the new hate crime bill. Concern was expressed that the wording of the bill would criminalise any discussion of trans issues and even statements such as women are adult human females or there are only two sexes. So an amendment was brought forward to clarify specifically that such statements were not criminal.

Then about 25 trans activists in the SNP had a public strop, declared that the SNP was a transphobic organisation and they didn't feel safe and they were leaving. Nicola Sturgeon then posted an extraordinary video on twitter apologising and begging them to come back. (One of the most obnoxious trans activists has just been obsequiously head-hunted back into the party today or at the weekend, in controversial circumstances.) The many many women who have resigned from the party over the lack of support for women's rights have had no response other than a form email thanking them for their past service.

The offending amendment was withdrawn to placate the trans activists so when the bill goes through it may well be a criminal offence in Scotland for anybody to state that a woman is an adult human female, if it offends somebody. The Justice Secretary has also said that private speech will also be covered by the act, and people should definitely be liable for anything said at the dinner table.
I doubt if I'll make it to 30 years in the SNP unless something changes radically very soon. We'll certainly never achieve independence with this shower in charge.

That's... just nuts. It's full-on thought police. Holy cow.

 

[Aber]

What's interesting to me about LondonJohn's definition is that it's the definition used by the UK Office for National Statistics (technically they're just using the UK government's definition, which makes sense).

This has implications for how the UK will be measuring and reporting certain statistics. When the government wishes to enact a policy, or measure the results of a policy, these are the definitions the Stats office will be using to report on the relevant questions.

No it doesn't because they haven't done any surveys based on gender; they're all done on the basis of sex.

There will be a gender question on the 2021 census but it will be voluntary.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/sexandgenderidentityquestiondevelopmentforcensus2021