Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[d4m10n]

Yes, and they aren't shy about white knighting for the entire female gender...

Surely you mean female sex?

...despite indications that their positions are not widely held by those they purport to speak for.

Which survey data are you looking at? I linked to one upthread, but it doesn't support your contention here.

 

[theprestige]

I concede it would end sex segregation, which could be replaced by gender segregation. This would satisfy the rationale for the segregation to begin with. My point is that, for all practical purposes, gender segregation that is trans-inclusive is a drop-in replacement that satisfies all the needs of current sex-segregation, and has the added benefit of protecting the civil rights of a vulnerable minority group.

It's not a drop-in replacement, though. The problem of sex identification has been largely solved. The problem of gender identification has not. And gender identification does not address the concerns of women who want safe spaces that exclude men because of their sex. Your solution simply consists of wishing the problem away, and calling anyone who doesn't agree a bigot.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It sounds like your position is that transwomen are men, but should be treated as women where practical to do so. And the rest of the debate is about what we can agree is practical.

It doesn't sound like that to me . it sounds like what he is saying is that the whole issue of what transwomen 'are' is neither here nor there if the problems can be solved by treating transwomen as if they are women. Certainly the example of sex-segregation that was given can be addressed by allowing trans people to use the housing of their choosing regardless of what you personally think they are or are not.

 

[theprestige]

I'm sorry you misinterpret me so badly. Perhaps it's my fault you came to such a poor conclusion.

Indeed, As you say, you've been sloppy with semantics. But I think I interpret your position better than you do.

You say, "transwomen are women", but you don't mean they're literally identical to ciswomen in every way. And you say transwomen should be treated as women in every practical way, but not in impractical ways (such as giving them ob-gyn exams or forgoing prostate exams, presumably). This seems to stick pretty closely to the biological basis: Transwomen aren't (literally) women, but we should accommodate their self-identity where practical. We should not adopt the impracticality of actually believing they're literally women.

I think the biggest difference is that you would like to adopt the language of pretense and impracticality, even though it would be a strawman to accuse you of believing that language to be literally true.

 

[Boudicca90]

The decision narrowly applies to employment. There is no wider recognition that transgender identity is a protected class federally. It remains lawful in many states to discriminate against trans people in housing and other non-employment parts of society.

Several states have passed explicitly anti-trans laws requiring them to use bathrooms consistent with their biological sex, regardless of their transitioned gender identity.

Trans people are routinely the targets of hate crimes and only some states classify them as such.

Only some states have included gender identity as a protected class in their civil rights statutes.

It remains legal federally and in many states for parents to compel their children to attend conversion therapy, which is widely regarded as little more than psychological torture.

Trans people are largely considered "mentally unfit" for military service, a reversal of previous policy.

The few advances that trans people have made over the last few years are perceived to be in great danger of being eliminated by a new conservative SCOTUS, which is probably why anti-trans legal advocacy groups like the ADF deem it a good time to bring such litigation.

Pretty good run down. I know i'm glad I transitioned in Nevada, where I had protections in case my landlord would try to kick me out (a very real concern of ours.)

Despite the strawmanning, this is what is meant by "Trans women are women". It's not about denying biological reality, it's a statement about practical realities. Trans women are women in the sense that they should be treated as women for all practical purposes. The difference between a trans woman and a cis man is much larger than the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman.

From the lens of social policy, gender identity is much more significant category than a strictly clinical view of sex. Trans acceptance fits fine into any rationale to divide the genders. It makes more sense to put a trans man, vagina and all, into a men's dorm rather than to make a bearded dude go live in a women's dorm.

inb4 idiotic claims about transwomen demanding hysterectomies or whatever nonsense is sure to follow.

Yep, there are differences between cis and trans women, but we should both be treated as women. I've never said anything like "I am like a cis woman in every way possible! Even though I have XY chromosomes and lack a uterus and ovaries!", I'm saying "I have enough in common with cis women that I should be considered the same, and my genetics and lack of reproductive capacity shouldn't be a factor."

Ok. Civil rights protections for trans people might mean the end of sex segregated dorms as you define it, but not mean the end of gender segregated dorms, which would be nearly identical to the previous practice except accommodating trans people. Women's shelters, dorms, and other spaces would remain essentially the same.

Sex is ultimately irrelevant in this discussion, but they keep trying to bring it up in order to muddle things. It's essentially genetic determinism, which is a concept that has some... unfortunate consequences throughout history. This is all about gender, which is much more complex of an issue.

And I have never had any desire to get rid of single-sex areas. As a woman I have come to realize just how important those spaces are to us, they provide a measure of safety and security when we feel we need it. It is just another strawman.

And imo, I would just ignore the people trying to call you a transphobe, they are just projecting their own ignorance and bigotry onto you. They've tried to do this to others like LondonJohn with no success. "Trans women are women." never meant there are no differences. Just that we are treated no differently unless absolutely necessary.

 

[theprestige]

inb4 idiotic claims about transwomen demanding hysterectomies or whatever nonsense is sure to follow.

Like the transman who showed up at the hospital with pregnancy complications, and had an unnecessarily negative healthcare outcome because he identified himself to the hospital as a man, and was triaged as such?

Idiotic claims and nonsense like that?

 

[Earthborn]

Where are you getting your reliability data?

There is no reliability data as there is no reliability.

"Feeling sexually excited" or "Believing the words you say" are subjective experiences and cannot have reliable objective measurements (at least not until the brain can be probed in extreme detail).

There may be correlations between the measurement and what people admit to. Someone who signed up for a study on sexual arousal and who has told the researchers what excites them beforehand may admit they were excited by the stimulus designed to excite them and that may correlate with physical correlates of excitement that the test subjects were allowed to have. Give them an incentive to cheat however -- an accusation of paedophilia for example -- and all that "reliability" flies out of the window.

 

[caveman1917]

You say, "transwomen are women", but you don't mean they're literally identical to ciswomen in every way.

Again, these two statements are not equivalent. "transwomen are women" is asserted more fully as "the set of women has two subsets, the set of transwomen and the set of ciswomen" so even under "transwomen are women" it is the case that it is false that "transwomen are identical to ciswomen in every way" - otherwise they wouldn't be two distinct subsets of the set of women. The strawman is Turkey's, when challenged on the claim "transwomen are women" he substitutes the much stronger claim "transwomen are identical to ciswomen in every way" and then - correctly though irrelevantly - denies having made that claim and crying strawman.

 

[MisAndreG]

Pretty good run down. I know i'm glad I transitioned in Nevada, where I had protections in case my landlord would try to kick me out (a very real concern of ours.)



Yep, there are differences between cis and trans women, but we should both be treated as women. I've never said anything like "I am like a cis woman in every way possible! Even though I have XY chromosomes and lack a uterus and ovaries!", I'm saying "I have enough in common with cis women that I should be considered the same, and my genetics and lack of reproductive capacity shouldn't be a factor."



Sex is ultimately irrelevant in this discussion, but they keep trying to bring it up in order to muddle things. It's essentially genetic determinism, which is a concept that has some... unfortunate consequences throughout history. This is all about gender, which is much more complex of an issue.

And I have never had any desire to get rid of single-sex areas. As a woman I have come to realize just how important those spaces are to us, they provide a measure of safety and security when we feel we need it. It is just another strawman.

And imo, I would just ignore the people trying to call you a transphobe, they are just projecting their own ignorance and bigotry onto you. They've tried to do this to others like LondonJohn with no success. "Trans women are women." never meant there are no differences. Just that we are treated no differently unless absolutely necessary.

what do you have in common with women that all humans don’t that doesn’t revolve to a sex stereotype?

“twam doesn’t mean what it says” is just gaslighting. also, the claim you don’t want to be treated differently from real women is misleading af, you want to oblige people to treat you that way and you want to use the power of the state to do so.

 

[Boudicca90]

There is no reliability data as there is no reliability.

"Feeling sexually excited" or "Believing the words you say" are subjective experiences and cannot have reliable objective measurements (at least not until the brain can be probed in extreme detail).

There may be correlations between the measurement and what people admit to. Someone who signed up for a study on sexual arousal and who has told the researchers what excites them beforehand may admit they were excited by the stimulus designed to excite them and that may correlate with physical correlates of excitement that the test subjects were allowed to have. Give them an incentive to cheat however -- an accusation of paedophilia for example -- and all that "reliability" flies out of the window.

Yeah, measuring sexual arousal based on erections is very flawed. I can say having been a man in the past, we tend to get erections at the slightest things and sometimes completely randomly. It really does have a mind of it's own sometimes. And there have also been plenty of times I was sexually excited without a measurable physical reaction.

Not having a male sex drive anymore, I can see just how wildly fluctuating and intense it can be in comparison. It was more of a burden than anything. I don't miss it.

 

[MisAndreG]

so we know that transition doesn’t help ppl with gender incongruence, and actually harms them. we also know gender is a ******** construct. So my question is why is trans considered a valid identity category like woman? humans deserve to be treated with dignity and be free from oppression, period. That I have to say this obvious thing pisses me off. But the best evidence points to trans being a harmful thing — in the way it’s treated and in the incidence of a bunch of mental health issues. so what’s the point of it?

 

[MisAndreG]

Boudicca let me just speak plainly to you - I don’t hate you. my posts are hostile yes, this topic gets me heated up. but trust love, I don’t hate you or want you dead or harmed or whatever composite golem image of a ‘terf” You might have. just felt like I needed say that

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Surely you mean female sex?

Which survey data are you looking at? I linked to one upthread, but it doesn't support your contention here.

Trans inclusion in athletics is probably going to remain a sticking point for many people who might otherwise be trans-accepting. I suspect that trans rights will only come to America if forced by the courts, just like gay marriage. There are lots of reactionary bigots in this country, and they are very well represented in the halls of power.

I was referencing more to the claims that trans inclusions in women's only spaces, like shelters and locker rooms, was perceived as a threat by cis women. In the countries where this is happening, like Canada or the UK, women are more likely than men to support such policies.

In canada, this poll shows that a large majority of Canadians support the trans anti-discrimination laws, and women are more likely than men to be trans allies:

http://angusreid.org/transgender-issues/

Likewise, a UK poll shows that women are more likely than men to support trans rights.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

The people white knighting on these issues in the name of women are literally in opposition to the majority view of these women they claim to represent.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Boudicca let me just speak plainly to you - I don’t hate you. my posts are hostile yes, this topic gets me heated up. but trust love, I don’t hate you or want you dead or harmed or whatever composite golem image of a ‘terf” You might have. just felt like I needed say that

That's cute, intentions don't amount to ****.

Trans people will continue to suffer unless the laws change. If you oppose those laws, you accept those consequences.

Pat yourself on the back on not being a TERF though.

Since we're all speaking plainly and out of love <3

 

[Boudicca90]

so we know that transition doesn’t help ppl with gender incongruence, and actually harms them. we also know gender is a ******** construct. So my question is why is trans considered a valid identity category like woman? humans deserve to be treated with dignity and be free from oppression, period. That I have to say this obvious thing pisses me off. But the best evidence points to trans being a harmful thing — in the way it’s treated and in the incidence of a bunch of mental health issues. so what’s the point of it?

You, along with your allies here, know NOTHING about us and you continue to show it.

I tried to deal with my dysphoria through therapy and medication to help my depression and anxiety and only led to more and more alcoholism, until it got to the point where I knew I would die if I continued on and so I decided to transition.

Nearly four sober years later and I am far happier than I have ever been and everyone notices it. It's not like I don't still deal with depression and anxiety, but my dysphoria was only part of that (a big part but still), and transitioning relieved a lot of my hatred and disgust with myself to the point where I can have a normal life and not want to kill myself.

Transitioning works, it is as simple as that. And I support it for anybody who feels it is what they need to do to feel whole.

 

[Boudicca90]

Boudicca let me just speak plainly to you - I don’t hate you. my posts are hostile yes, this topic gets me heated up. but trust love, I don’t hate you or want you dead or harmed or whatever composite golem image of a ‘terf” You might have. just felt like I needed say that

I don't care what you or anybody else here thinks of me. You people can treat me with hostility all you want to, I've gotten used to it by now.

I ultimately don't give a crap about your opinions on us, as long as we have the law on our side to protect us from people like you.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't care what you or anybody else here thinks of me.

Your entire existence in this thread is founded on arguing that is vitally important what other people think of you.

"I don't care what you think of the fact that it's super important you think I'm a woman" doesn't make any kind of sense. How in the Blue Blazes is "You not agreeing my gender identity is literally a hate crime that makes you a bigot" not caring what we think of you?

Do you care what we think or not?

 

[MisAndreG]

You, along with your allies here, know NOTHING about us and you continue to show it.

I tried to deal with my dysphoria through therapy and medication to help my depression and anxiety and only led to more and more alcoholism, until it got to the point where I knew I would die if I continued on and so I decided to transition.

Nearly four sober years later and I am far happier than I have ever been and everyone notices it. It's not like I don't still deal with depression and anxiety, but my dysphoria was only part of that (a big part but still), and transitioning relieved a lot of my hatred and disgust with myself to the point where I can have a normal life and not want to kill myself.

Transitioning works, it is as simple as that. And I support it for anybody who feels it is what they need to do to feel whole.

But the best studies found there is no mental health benefit from cross sex hormones or gender affirming surgeries. how am I supposed to resolve your claims with the best evidence?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Indeed, As you say, you've been sloppy with semantics. But I think I interpret your position better than you do.

You say, "transwomen are women", but you don't mean they're literally identical to ciswomen in every way. And you say transwomen should be treated as women in every practical way, but not in impractical ways (such as giving them ob-gyn exams or forgoing prostate exams, presumably). This seems to stick pretty closely to the biological basis: Transwomen aren't (literally) women, but we should accommodate their self-identity where practical. We should not adopt the impracticality of actually believing they're literally women.

I think the biggest difference is that you would like to adopt the language of pretense and impracticality, even though it would be a strawman to accuse you of believing that language to be literally true.

Someone else laid it out neater, but I'll steal it as my own.

Trans and cis women are two distinct subsets of the larger category "women". There are differences between these two subsets, but those differences don't make either not members of the women category.

The differences between cis and trans women are quite small compared to the differences between either subset of women and men.

Trans women are women, but that doesn't mean they are identical to cis women, who are also women.

 

[MisAndreG]

I don't care what you or anybody else here thinks of me. You people can treat me with hostility all you want to, I've gotten used to it by now.

I ultimately don't give a crap about your opinions on us, as long as we have the law on our side to protect us from people like you.

the whole reason this is an issue is that you want to people to reflect your own self image back at you. you very much do care what people think of you

my goodness what do you think I want done to you ? I’m not some composite golem of your worst nightmares that you need protection from, let alone legal protection