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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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That addresses issues with the MRI studies. It does not mention the types of studies I was referring to.

As I said, I wouldn't consider the evidence conclusive. It's an ongoing area of research. However, at least one of the twin studies spends a great deal of text discussing orientation. (The one by Milton Diamond. The wikipedia links to abstracts, but I found the whole paper: https://critorix.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Transsexuality-Among-Twins.pdf) I haven't done so for the other twin study cited. It's impossible to determine such things from abstracts.

Again, I was asked if the hypothesis I put forward had any basis in science, not whether it was proven. I have done that. I don't need to defend anyone's research.
 
That's a bizarre claim, considering that (as several posters have pointed out) I do not even have a solid line of how much I am calling for.

I think you do have a solid line on what you're calling for.

What you haven't had a good line on, was what other TRAs have been calling for, and how much more extreme it is than what you're calling for.

Now that you're getting a good line on it, you've apparently decided that anyone calling for anything you think is too extreme isn't a TRA at all, but an anti-trans conspiracy to make real TRAs like you look bad.

You went from "self-id isn't real" to "self-id is real, and an anti-trans plot".

Now you're doing the same with IGLYO.
 
That addresses issues with the MRI studies. It does not mention the types of studies I was referring to.

There's nothing specific about it that makes it limited to MRI studies. You could just as well apply it to genetic studies.

As I said, I wouldn't consider the evidence conclusive. It's an ongoing area of research. However, at least one of the twin studies spends a great deal of text discussing orientation. (The one by Milton Diamond. The wikipedia links to abstracts, but I found the whole paper: https://critorix.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Transsexuality-Among-Twins.pdf) I haven't done so for the other twin study cited. It's impossible to determine such things from abstracts.

From the paper:
The survey did not specifically ask respondents about the sexual
orientation of their twin. From the comments and answers received, my
impression was that those concurrent in transitioning were also concordant in
sexual orientation.
(that sexual orientation being homosexuality in most of the cases, as noted earlier in the paper)

You have to explicitly control for homosexuality. As in, group individuals based on sexuality as well as on transgender status, and see if the transgender-based result still holds after accounting for homosexuality - which we already know to be concordant in twins. Spending a great deal of text discussing sexual orientation is not the same as controlling for it, which is surprising since the comment I quoted seems to imply that homosexuality is indeed a confounding factor in this dataset (concordance in transgenderism being associated with concordance in homosexual orientation).

The problem with any such study, MRI or otherwise, not explicitly controlling for homosexuality is that it is impossible to distinguish between having found a biological basis for transgenderism and having found a biological basis for homosexuality where transgenderism is but one outcome of that sexual orientation, but where transgenderism itself does not have a biological basis.
 
I think you do have a solid line on what you're calling for.

What you haven't had a good line on, was what other TRAs have been calling for, and how much more extreme it is than what you're calling for.

Now that you're getting a good line on it, you've apparently decided that anyone calling for anything you think is too extreme isn't a TRA at all, but an anti-trans conspiracy to make real TRAs like you look bad.

You went from "self-id isn't real" to "self-id is real, and an anti-trans plot".

Now you're doing the same with IGLYO.

I'm glad someone finally understands my evolution of thought here. My autism makes it difficult for me to express. :blush:

It does seem to be the way politics is done nowadays.

Such as the Cultural Marxists clobbering the Frankfurt School theorists.

Such as the Bernie Bros clobbering contemporary Socialism.
 
What you haven't had a good line on, was what . . . TRAs have been calling for, and how much more extreme it is than what you're calling for.
I'd like to see a good summary of what constitutes "mainstream transactivism" nowadays. From what I've seen at the ACLU website, the basic idea is that trans women belong in all places where cis women do, to include restrooms and locker rooms along with sports leagues.
 
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There's nothing specific about it that makes it limited to MRI studies. You could just as well apply it to genetic studies.



From the paper:

(that sexual orientation being homosexuality in most of the cases, as noted earlier in the paper)

You have to explicitly control for homosexuality. As in, group individuals based on sexuality as well as on transgender status, and see if the transgender-based result still holds after accounting for homosexuality - which we already know to be concordant in twins. Spending a great deal of text discussing sexual orientation is not the same as controlling for it, which is surprising since the comment I quoted seems to imply that homosexuality is indeed a confounding factor in this dataset (concordance in transgenderism being associated with concordance in homosexual orientation).

The problem with any such study, MRI or otherwise, not explicitly controlling for homosexuality is that it is impossible to distinguish between having found a biological basis for transgenderism and having found a biological basis for homosexuality where transgenderism is but one outcome of that sexual orientation, but where transgenderism itself does not have a biological basis.

If there is a correlation for homosexuality, and transgender is a possible outcome of homosexuality, then there is also a valid correlation with transgender.

Also, you have to bear in mind that the flaw in the MRI studies was not that they were measuring homosexuality rather than transgender. It was that they were measuring patterns of sexual arousal and using the results to define a male brain vs a female brain. (And then correlating to transgenderism.)

It's a completely different thing from the twin study correlations.

Also, do you have a study showing that transgenderism is a possible outcome of homosexuality?
 
I'd like to see a good summary of what constitutes "mainstream transactivism" nowadays. From what I've seen at the ACLU website, the basic idea is that trans women belong in all places where cis women do, to include restrooms and locker rooms along with sports leagues.

The ACLU? :boggled: The organization that supports the right of fascists to conduct terror marches through cities, and after such a march left Heather Heyer dead made only the modification that they shouldn't carry guns. (A total non sequitor, since Heather Heyer was killed by a car.)

You take their word for what any kind of activism consists of? :boggled:
 
And this would hardly fill people with confidence as to it'd validity or relevance

I see where this is going. The ACLU is apparently the gold standard for defining all the lobbies it endorses. If everyone had just been up front about that instead of leaving all the newcomers floundering among the contradictory mess of actual lobbies trying to figure out which one is the target of everyone's ire, it would have been a lot simpler.
 
If there is a correlation for homosexuality, and transgender is a possible outcome of homosexuality, then there is also a valid correlation with transgender.

Yes, but if the effect re transgender disappears after controlling for homosexuality then the result isn't valid for transgender. It's like finding a correlation between people wearing shorts and people eating ice cream. Sure, the correlation is there, but it's not like wearing shorts causes someone to eat ice cream or vice versa, it's just that both wearing shorts and eating ice cream are correlated with it being a hot day.

Also, you have to bear in mind that the flaw in the MRI studies was not that they were measuring homosexuality rather than transgender. It was that they were measuring patterns of sexual arousal and using the results to define a male brain vs a female brain. (And then correlating to transgenderism.)

There was one such study with that flaw, but that's not the flaw I'm talking about. The flaw I'm talking about is taking a group of male transgender homosexuals and comparing them with a group of male cisgender heterosexuals, and then ascribing the difference to transgender whereas the difference could be explained by sexual orientation. Basically the flaw is using an improper control group that differs on more than the variable being investigated.

It's a completely different thing from the twin study correlations.

True, but that doesn't mean the issue of homosexuality as a confounding factor isn't present there either. Suppose we have a group of 100 transgenders with twins. We find an 80% concordance for their twins. Now suppose we control for homosexuality, that 80 of them are homosexual and 20 are heterosexual. All 80 homosexual ones are concordant with their twins and all 20 heterosexual ones are discordant with their twins. Then the correct interpretation is not that a biological basis for transgenderism is found but one for homosexuality.

If, on the other hand, it turns out that 65 of the homosexual ones are concordant and 15 of the heterosexual ones, then the correct interpretation is indeed that a biological basis for transgenderism has been found. However we can not distinguish between these possibilities unless the study explicitly controls for sexual orientation.

Also, do you have a study showing that transgenderism is a possible outcome of homosexuality?

There are a bunch of studies showing that about 80% of transgender youth grow up to be cisgender homosexuals, I could go look for them if you want although a quick google search should find them. Whether that means that transgenderism is a possible outcome of homosexuality, or that homosexuality is a possible outcome of transgenderism, or that there is some other unknown factor influencing both is hard to tell, but that there is a strong association between transgenderism and homosexuality is clear. You can just take a look at the studies you've been linking to as well, homosexuality is vastly overrepresented in the transgender population (something like 80% of transgenders being homosexual, as opposed to like 5% in the general population). This (the vast majority of transgenders being homosexual) combined with there already being known biological markers for homosexuality (both in brain scans and twin studies), complicates studies into biological markers for transgenderism. Hence the need to control for it.
 
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