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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Sherkeu said:
Women's rugby is also for transmen pumped full of testosterone.

There are so few trans men who actually want to play a contact sport on the men's side. (I actually havent heard of any but I'm sure they are out there somewhere!).
It's always Ladies night and nobody wants to pay that cover charge.

https://www.outsports.com/2020/8/27...er-world-rugby-ban-transgender-women-athletes



Remember, this is a transman playing with females arguing that natal male bodies pose no dangers in a contact sport.

I am confused as to how why their experience on the ladies team matters.
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I suggest that he should go play full-on rugby with some natal men before solidifying his position on this.
 
Emily's Cat said:
The only possible exception to the binary would be someone who had chimerism... and whose chimerism produced mixed sexual organs and left them with both types of gametes. To my knowledge though, nobody has been found with this condition, even though it's hypothetically possible.
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There was a pretty famous case of a mother who had chimerism (otherwise totally normal except for her DNA).
But you are right that I don't think it could happen with mixed sexes.

Woman is her own twin:
https://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/shes-twin/story?id=2315693

But none of that seemed to matter, because DNA tests were considered infallible -- the gold standard in court. DNA showed that Fairchild's genetic makeup did not match that of her children.

Fairchild said before she left (welfare office), the social worker told her, "You know, we're able to come get your kids at any time."

...
The state was still so suspicious of Fairchild that when she gave birth to another child, a court officer stood in the delivery room to witness an immediate DNA test.

"They took DNA from the baby and myself right then and there, after birth, and it came back that there is no way possible that baby is mine," Fairchild said.

Even though they'd witnessed the birth, officials believed she was acting as a surrogate, possibly bearing a child for money.
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eta:
Transgnderism, does seem to have a genetic concordance (ident vs fraternal twin studies) but there is no concordance with any of the genes we know to be sex determinants. Science knows when those go wrong, arent expressed, are absent, doubled, etc... and those people are not more likely to be trans. So it is some other combo of things.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Women's rugby is for women. And since transwomen are women, transwomen should be allowed to play women's rugby. And if you disagree, you're a transphobe.
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You've reminded me a of a another good analogy in sport.

NZ is the current world champion netball team. The women who play are superb athletes, very highly skilled, and they are the cream of the crop because netball is NZ's premier women's team sport and it pays better than any of the others.

As a practice series for games against Australia last year, they played the men's netball team. The number of men who play netball here is vanishingly small - completely amateur (having no sponsors or crowds) with minimal competition because there are hardly any teams. It's a social game for men.

The men utterly crushed the women. It was a repeat of the Williams sisters v the number 206 tennis player - men are too big, too strong and too fast.

And now they can pull on a pair of pink panties and demand to play.

Excellent way to destroy women's sport - that'll teach you for seeking equal pay!
 
Emily's Cat said:
That's not what happened though. IT's turned into that framing... but that's not how it went down.

The transman came into the ER, and he told the admitting nurse that he was a transman - he didn't try to hide it. IIRC, he even mentioned that he might be pregnant. The nurse, however, wrote down "M" for sex, feeling that it was the right thing to do to acknowledge his gender identity.

Everyone else downstream from there just followed the normal procedures for male patients complaining of abdominal pain. They didn't run the pregnancy panel against his blood sample, as they would have with a woman.

That's a case where I place the majority of the blame squarely on the hospital and the degree of policy capture embedded in it. I grant a bit of blame to the patient for not being significantly more vocal about being biologically female, and for not making a lot more fuss about the situation. That, however, is highly likely to be the residue of having been raised as a girl, and conditioned to behave as a girl... which often includes not speaking up for oneself, not challenging "authorities", bearing one's discomfort in pain, and basically being quite and reserved and cooperative.
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Thank you for the correction. I will dial back my snark and be more conscientious about this incident.
 
Sherkeu said:
Women's rugby is also for transmen pumped full of testosterone.

There are so few trans men who actually want to play a contact sport on the men's side. (I actually havent heard of any but I'm sure they are out there somewhere!).
It's always Ladies night and nobody wants to pay that cover charge.
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Meet Harrison Browne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNYBqrhLBqo

To be fair, I don't know if he still plays hockey. He was a professional female player who delayed his transition until after he retired from hockey. But this video describes his first experience in a men's locker room and playing with men for a celebrity game. He mentions transitioning to men's sports, so I presume he at least intended to continue playing at a club level.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I suggest that he should go play full-on rugby with some natal men before solidifying his position on this.
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It's sort of a sad end for him. While still playing with the females, he got tackled and had a spinal injury and plays with the men now, but in a wheelchair. (he isnt paralyzed, just can't do the hard running anymore)

But yeah, his argument still made no sense.
They also made it a point to say that he was the only trans person to show up to the debate/meeting to decide on transwomen being allowed on females teams. Where were the transwomen to speak up for themselves??

This man was the only trans rugby player in the room where it happened: A forum to ban trans women athletes

Before proposing its transban, World Rugby failed to listen to Verity Smith, who played the sport for 26 years and says “I don’t think it’s dangerous” for cis women to play trans women.
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The Atheist said:
You've reminded me a of a another good analogy in sport.

NZ is the current world champion netball team. The women who play are superb athletes, very highly skilled, and they are the cream of the crop because netball is NZ's premier women's team sport and it pays better than any of the others.

As a practice series for games against Australia last year, they played the men's netball team. The number of men who play netball here is vanishingly small - completely amateur (having no sponsors or crowds) with minimal competition because there are hardly any teams. It's a social game for men.

The men utterly crushed the women. It was a repeat of the Williams sisters v the number 206 tennis player - men are too big, too strong and too fast.

And now they can pull on a pair of pink panties and demand to play.

Excellent way to destroy women's sport - that'll teach you for seeking equal pay!
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It’s no wonder TRAs do not want to discuss sport.

By the way, I’m very attracted to the “age fluidity” concept. I now require all of you to picture me as a 40 year old man. Can I claim I’m biologically 40 just through self-proclamation?
 
Emily's Cat said:
My completely-novice understanding is that kittens are difficult to sex when they're very young. The vulva is virtually indistinguishable from a male cat's urethral opening, and the testes are internal until they hit puberty. So apparently they've got to really poke around a bit to make sure.
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You can tell relatively easily when they're newborn, especially if there are kittens of both sexes in the litter. After a few days it starts to get difficult.

I remember once someone brought in two tiny feline scraps to the vet college where I was working and the haematology technician volunteered to try to raise them. There was a girl and a boy, obviously so at that stage. Someone dubbed them Bubble and Squeak due to the noises in their lungs. Unsurprisingly Bubble, the girl, died, leaving Squeak, the boy, on his own. He was at the difficult-to-tell age when the Reproduction lecturer came in and insisted he was a girl. Those who had seen him when he was tiny, and had been able to compare him to his sister, said no, boy. Ed was adamant. His parting words were, OK it's a boy but I'll still spay her for you when she's old enough.

Of course, in due course Squeak (now renamed something sensible) was of course castrated. I mean, the Lecturer in Veterinary Reproduction got it wrong. Which just goes to show.
 
lionking said:
It’s no wonder TRAs do not want to discuss sport.
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Nailed.

Every one of them has so far dismissed sport as "I'm not interested in sports".

It's about the feels and not facts any more.

lionking said:
By the way, I’m very attracted to the “age fluidity” concept. I now require all of you to picture me as a 40 year old man. Can I claim I’m biologically 40 just through self-proclamation?
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Alas, that was tried and it failed. https://www.npr.org/2018/11/08/665592537/69-year-old-dutch-man-seeks-to-change-his-legal-age-to-49

I would have thought that was a lot fairer than changing one's gender. No superannuation to pay, no senior discounts...
 
Sherkeu said:
It's sort of a sad end for him. While still playing with the females, he got tackled and had a spinal injury and plays with the men now, but in a wheelchair. (he isnt paralyzed, just can't do the hard running anymore)
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That sucks :(

Sherkeu said:
But yeah, his argument still made no sense.
They also made it a point to say that he was the only trans person to show up to the debate/meeting to decide on transwomen being allowed on females teams. Where were the transwomen to speak up for themselves??
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That's not as uncommon as reasonable people woudl think. There've been several cases now where events have been organized to discuss how trans rights interact with women's rights, with the objective of hearing both sides and coming to some compromise. It has ended up with the transwomen refusing to attend because they've deemed the other speakers to be "TERFs" and won't tolerate their presences at the same venue. In many cases, it's also resulted in the transwomen and allies threatening venues, disrupting meetings, deplatforming the women who want to talk about it, and even attacking and beating up pensioners.
 
lionking said:
It’s no wonder TRAs do not want to discuss sport.

By the way, I’m very attracted to the “age fluidity” concept. I now require all of you to picture me as a 40 year old man. Can I claim I’m biologically 40 just through self-proclamation?
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I don't see why not. Who are we to tell you that your identity isn't valid?
 
TomB said:
Meet Harrison Browne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNYBqrhLBqo

To be fair, I don't know if he still plays hockey. He was a professional female player who delayed his transition until after he retired from hockey. But this video describes his first experience in a men's locker room and playing with men for a celebrity game. He mentions transitioning to men's sports, so I presume he at least intended to continue playing at a club level.
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Transitioning after the competition years seems to be the way to go for FtM...then they can play at whatever men's level that suits them.

Take that example of the WNBA woman who had 'top surgery', but nothing else. She doesnt really have a choice if she still wants to play at a pro level.
 
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Collin237 said:
I think I struck gold! Peak TERF!

https://www.intomore.com/impact/thi...y-alaskas-failed-antilgbtq-bathroom-campaign/

I had been suspecting something like this all along.

Emily, please read this article. It changes everything.
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Media framing is always a pain to wade through
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/01/11/transgender-toronto-woman-says-death-threats-forced-her-into-hiding/

She doesn't live her entire life as a 6-year-old girl... but that's the persona she adopts whenever she can't face being an adult. Honestly, the pretending to be a child, including letting her "parents" make all of her decisions for her, that's the strange and disturbing part of it. Her being trans and wanting to live as a woman, that's just fine.

This is from the article that you linked to:
Generally used on children between the ages of three and 12, the practice involves allowing adolescents to convey their emotions through play. The idea is that by allowing for freedom of expression within a contained environment, individuals can better access deeply repressed feelings.

Wolscht says that exercises like coloring and playing with dolls allowed her to heal after the extreme trauma she experienced. When she feels a major anxiety attack coming on, Wolscht cedes all decision-making to a couple appointed to act as her “parents.”

“They get to decide what I’m going to eat and how I’m going to spend my day like if I’m going to be puzzling, playing with dolls, or watching cartoons,” she says. “They literally make all my choices for me. The only rules they make is they say we would like you to not do anything for the next 24 hours just play.”
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She should definitely NOT be subjected to death threats and hatred and abuse. Nobody should.

That doesn't make the pretending to be a six year old any less... well... colloquially nuts.
 
Sherkeu said:
Transitioning after the competition years seems to be the way to go for FtM...then they can play at whatever men's level that suits them.
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It seems disingenuous to me, in the context of trans rights activism.

On the one hand, transitioning is a critically-important mental health step that must be taken as far as possible as fast as possible, even to the point of unquestioning acceptance of self-diagnosis by children, and absolute social accommodation...

... On the other hand, "nah, I'm good. Lemme just complete my career goals and then I'll transition whenever it's convenient for me."
 
Emily's Cat said:
Occasionally some do. Then again, sometimes female prisoners get raped, and females in rape shelters wake up to find the transwoman in their room masturbating their lady penis over them in the middle of the night.

How much rape and sexual assault do you think females should be required to experience in order to allow male-bodied transwomen the right to be housed with females?
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All there seem to be is a lot of anecdotes, which may be impossible to confirm or deny. If that's all there is to read about trans-inclusive prisons and shelters -- which is a bias too lucrative for any media to turn down -- it's no surprise that most people assume it happens frequently.

I think society needs to drop the "no perfect victim" mantra and encourage victims to provide verifiable accounts to aboveboard sources.

Prisons and shelters are no place to be squeemish about surveillance. They should be as full of cameras and alarms as a Beijing street corner. :) It should be virtually impossible for a sexual event to be reduced to mere hearsay. And this has nothing to do with whether anyone is cis or trans.
 
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There has been plenty confirmation of a number of incidents, up to and including prosecutions and convictions.
 
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