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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Aber said:
https://www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

Here's a bit of a 'how to' guide:
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That's a... disturbing.. read.

7. Tie your campaign to more popular reform
In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for
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JoeMorgue said:
You've already declared me a rapist in waiting. You think it bothers me you don't think I'm "nice?"

Again at what point in your argument, even if 100% true, am I supposed to be on your side here?
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Nobody has declared you a rapist in waiting.

I'm bordering on declaring you to be approaching this from a rather misogynistic position though.
 
Collin237 said:
That pamphlet is obviously satire. This is the sort of thing radicals pass around to convince people of their imaginary nefarious plots. You've been played.
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No, it is a real document, originally sourced to a reliable blog and acknowledged by the law firm which prepared it.

When it was asked to comment on aspects of its report, Dentons initially offered up Atanas Politov, its Director for Pro Bono, for an interview. Then it asked for written questions in advance. When these were provided, the world's largest firm by headcount was unable to find anyone prepared to answer them, and gave a general statement instead.
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JoeMorgue said:
You've already declared me a rapist in waiting. You think it bothers me you don't think I'm "nice?"

Again at what point in your argument, even if 100% true, am I supposed to be on your side here?
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In all seriousness, I do wonder why it bothers you. Can you put it into words?

I don't mind being treated with suspicion by females. I can't recall it ever having any practical effect on my life. I just take it as a given.

The specific language you use, such as "predator" and "rapist in waiting" is somewhat inflammatory, but I understand why they are actually just a little bit on their guard around me. If I do the right things, they will relax around me as they get to know me. If I do the wrong things, they will be even more on their guard.
 
Rolfe said:
I think Collin is going to peak trans in about ten days at this rate.
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There seems to be a consistent theme that people wander into this thread (often with preconceptions) and are somewhat disbelieving about issues raised.

Sometimes there is a very steep learning curve.:cool:
 
caveman1917 said:
So a man is anyone who appears to be male?
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That's not exactly what I said, but anyone who appears to be male (regardless of why) is likely to be subjected to the usual social expectations associated with masculinity, from pronouns all the way down.

caveman1917 said:
In that case most transwomen would be men, as most appear to be male.
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What's your sample size?
 
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Collin237 said:
I think most people assume something similar about anyone who uses "men" to refer to trans women.

In both cases, it's a rushed judgment.
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It's not analogous.

People who refer to transwomen as "men" are pushing back on the TRA premise that they're women. They're also engaged in an ongoing debate about definitions and policy.

Nobody (except, perhaps, you) is disputing the premise of Martian canals or the terms used to describe them and the body of knowledge around them. The point is that everyone is on the same page about Martian canals, and Martian valleys. Whereas TRAs seem to be all over the map about trans rights.

Even you are only beginning to grapple with the realization that trans-activism isn't progressing the way you assumed, and that there's a variance between what you thought was going on and what's really going on. When you first joined this thread, you insisted that self-ID was a fringe idea that was not and would never be mainstream policy. Even after being told repeatedly that it is in fact mainstream policy in a growing number of jurisdictions, you're still not sure.
 
Rolfe said:
Someone said women don't care about transmen. We do care, deeply. We care about the suffering of adolescent girls who are uncomfortable with their developing bodies (we've all been there) and are now being encouraged to see this as a reason for permanent body-altering and sterilising medication and surgery.

https://thevelvetchronicle.com/double-mastectomy-at-15-detrans-16-year-old-now-seeks-reversal/
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I rather like The Velvet Chronicle. I try to give it a read every couple of weeks.

And yes, we care deeply about transmen, it's just a very different perspective.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
There is not a consensus among cis women that trans rights come at the expense of their own rights. The term "TERF" was created explicitly to differentiate between feminists who are in support of trans rights, and the feminists who see trans rights as an attack on the rights of women. As far as I can tell, the TERFs are a very loud minority of the broader feminist movement that stands in solidarity with trans people.

Not everyone sees civil rights as a zero-sum game. In fact, many see expanding civil rights as a boon to all other marginalized groups.
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I suspect that (lack of a consensus among females) will change - and is changing - as females see their rights, sports, etc. eroding. Several of the posters in this thread are examples.

Note many of the UK left-wing feminists see 'TERF' as a slur (and I believe it has been ruled as such). That being said, I can see making a case for being transwoman-exclusionary a prerequisite for being a feminist. If you are a group arguing for female rights, it seems legitimate to not include others (i.e. all males) in your group.

See the NY Case EC posted - if a TW takes a representation slot that was reserved for a female, that's pretty much a zero sum game.

In the US, we have bigger worries right now, since right-wingers have actively been trying to undermine democracy. FWIW, one thing that worries me about the TWaW/anti-female rights movement is that it can can be used by the right here to help demonize progress politics - we see that happening with the demands for TW to be allowed in female sports.
 
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Collin237 said:
That pamphlet is obviously satire. This is the sort of thing radicals pass around to convince people of their imaginary nefarious plots. You've been played.
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The International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer & Intersex Youth and Student Organisation (IGLYO) seems to be a real NGO with a serious intent.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Some of those cues are secondary sex characteristics (breasts and beard)... but a huge amount of them are sex-linked differences between male and female morphology. It's the shape of the body, the ratio of shoulder width to hip width, the overall size, the degree of muscularity and the deposition of fat, the shape of the brow ridge and the orbital socket, the shape of the jaw and chin, the shape and positioning of the gluteal muscles, the tilt and shape of the hips, the gait that is produced from those hips.
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I take your point, but pattern recognition algorithms (at least the ones I've studied and occasionally written) tend to use the least subtle signals first and use more subtle features to update the initial assessment. What's your assessment when the obvious features (e.g. bald head, beard stubble, lack of breasts) are in conflict with the less obvious ones such as those you describe above? My approach is usually to go with whatever signals the individual in question has under their conscious control.
 
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