By the standards of liberal society, someone who is "extremely obviously male" would not be considered a trans woman. If you're going by extremists on either side, rather than ordinary liberals, YMMV, but don't pretend that's a legitimate interpretation of this thread.
Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)
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By the standards of liberal society, someone who is "extremely obviously male" would not be considered a trans woman. If you're going by extremists on either side, rather than ordinary liberals, YMMV, but don't pretend that's a legitimate interpretation of this thread.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
This is an interesting parallel.
Generally, I too take a moment to evaluate an unknown dog and determine whether it is acting aggressively. In a well-lit populated public area, I don't even take a moment when it comes to unknown men; I only take note if they are already acting aggressively. I give men in public areas even less consideration for potential aggressiveness than I give an unknown male human.
What if an unleashed large dog comes running at you unexpectedly? Do you assume that they're friendly, or do you react protectively first and then evaluate? Similarly, if an unknown male is walking behind me on a dark street and nobody else is around... I pay a lot more attention to them then if it were a crowded venue. Not because I expect them to be a predator, but because they might be a predator.
If I've just met a dog for the first time, I don't immediately start rough-housing with them. I give it a while so I know what they're like... just in case they get aggressive with that kind of play. On the other hand, if I meet an unknown man at a party or a club, I don't assume that they are dangerous or anything else - I assume that they're just a normal guy. I only become wary after they've become pushy or aggressive.
And when it comes down to it, I'd rather be locked in a room with a randomly chosen unknown man than with a randomly chosen unknown dog. But I'd greatly prefer to be locked in a room with a randomly chosen unknown cat or female.
Because even if the statistical chances are not high that a given individual man or dog will be aggressive and dangerous... it's magnitudes higher than the chances that an individual woman or car will be.
I'm probably the only one who thinks that was supposed to be the meaning of trans rights all along, and both sides are to blame for screwing it up.
Rolfe
Adult human female
There was a case in England a few years ago where a woman had been violently assaulted by a man who had no GRC but identified as trans. The actual asault happened after dark and the man was wearing fairly neutral clothes like a hoodie and jeans or something like that. The victim very much had the impression that she was being beaten up by a man.
Fast forward to the court appearance, and the perpetrator had dyed his hair or got a long blonde wig or something, and showed up in a dress and trying to look feminine. The victim was told that she had to refer to this person as "she", even though her perception was of a male. She slipped up once or twice in the witness box. The man was convicted despite lying his head off (and getting friends to lie their heads off too) because someone had filmed the whole thing. However the judge spoke very severely to the victim about her disrespectful treatment of her attacker, and said that he was not minded to make any order for compensation in her favour because she had misgendered the poor transwomen.
Okay, so it's a little insulting to us males and you take it personally. So what? Where are you going with this?
Is it your preference to amend the insult by doing away with sex-segregated spaces altogether? And if so, do you regard access rights for self-declared fully male-bodied transwomen to female segregated spaces as a useful step in bringing that about? The tip of the spear, so to speak?
I'm curious because, if that's not what you're getting at, I don't see how you feeling insulted is relevant to trans rights questions. And if it is, then much earlier in the thread, some correspondents were claiming that agenda was in play, and I have to admit I didn't believe them.
Oh sweet summer child...
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
It's the "behaviors expected of a black person" part of it that is a problem. Just like it's the 'behaviors expected of a female" that are the problem.
Whether you view them as vices or virtues, they still create confining stereotypes, where females are expected to conform to the stereotype or risk being labeled as unfeminine and derided for their behavior.
An impulsive woman is treated with more disdain and more criticism than an impulsive man... specifically because women are "expected" to show more self-restraint. It's ********.
caveman1917
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Thank you for confirming. It would of course be helpful to get an actual definition of "valid" but since I'm not even sure you understand the concept of definitions I'm not going to hold my breath. Either way, I'm not seeing much difference between "I can converse with dead people" and "I am male/female (when you're the other sex)" as both are simply false statements no matter how much they are genuinely experienced.
Ziggurat
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Inherently predatory? No. We are inherently more aggressive, though, and the overwhelming majority of violent sexual predators are male. Female sexual predators operate very differently. They mostly don't go after strangers, and are more likely to use nonphysical forms of coercion.
No, it's not. There's no similar issue regarding transmen because it's not a symmetric situation. Transmen are not, in general, stronger than men. And female sexual predators are very unlikely to pose as a transman in order to gain access to male-only spaces, because again, that's not how female sexual predators generally operate. Females are not excluded from areas where men get naked for the physical safety of men.
Pretending that the sexes should be symmetric is a delusion. Feminism helped foist this delusion on the public, and as I've said before, I'm not shy about criticizing feminism. And I don't think females are better than males either. Female-only groups frequently collapse from infighting and status competition in ways that male-only groups generally don't. Watch that Bear Grylls "Island" show where they split the teams into men vs. women to see that play out in stark contrast. But on this specific metric, you really have to be hiding your head in the sand to not recognize that male sexual assault against females is a MUCH higher risk for women in bathrooms/changing rooms than it is the other way around. That isn't anti-male, that's just reality.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Most of the females will be convicted for aiding and abetting a male abuser, too. The man uses his girlfriend to allay the fears of the victim and or their family, the couple get the victim in a vunerable position, and then he strikes.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
It seems complicated to some. If you identify as someone without a penis but actually have one, you can still pee standing up.
And that, by the way, is absolutely behavior women do. A lot of bathroom selfies get posted.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Mmm, yes. I don't think he realises that the vast majority of transwomen are extremely obviously male, regardless of what they're wearing at the time. Adam's apple, five o'clock shadow, baritone voice, enormous hands and feet, receding hairline... I mean honestly, how blind (and deaf) does he think women are?
Even Blaire White, who seems to pass pretty well on video, regularly gets clocked in the flesh.
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
I agree with your proposed solution. I wasn't making an argument for excluding trans people, I was just disagreeing with Joe that such segregation is inherently misandrist.
Ron Obvious
Graduate Poster
After reading hundreds of pages of this discussion, it seems that me that there is absolutely no consistency in the positions of what I will simplistically call the "pro-trans" side of the argument debaters here when it comes to the basics: "trans-women really are women", self-identification vs certification, surgery, attempting to pass, when and where to legitimately discriminate, etc, etc.
That's usually good enough to dismiss them entirely.
That's usually good enough to dismiss them entirely.
caveman1917
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Same reason Jessica Yanniv went to small immigrant parlors. Misogyny and racism go hand in hand. It's also practically handy as they're less likely to be able to mount good legal defenses if it came to that.
caveman1917
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Most people would call that simple observation (males being observably the vast, vast majority of perpetrators).
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Have you noticed there are people whom you treat as women (she/her/ma'am/"The ladies' department is that way.") and others whom you treat as men (he/him/sir/"The haberdashery is upstairs.")? Are you 100% sure that these social roles line up with their chromosomal sex or sex at birth? If not, then you too may be classifying and treating people based on their social gender role (to include gender presentation) rather than their sex.
Not to mention the only ones who pose the particular risk of pregnancy.
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Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Neither of those are demonstrated to be true. They're speculated as potential causes.
TurkeysGhost
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Yaniv lost in court and had to pay recompense to the victims of her legal harassment. Canada passed trans rights into law and yet Yaniv's crackpot legal trolling was unsuccesful.
It's almost as if the anti-trans doomsaying around the issue was totally off-base.
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