Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Emily's Cat]

Normalizing gender stereotypes and using them as a legal basis for segregation seems like all kinds of a bad idea.

That's a much more succinct response than mine was.

d4mi0n, what would be the response if we defined "black" as anyone who is black by ethnicity or who performs the behaviors expected of a black person?

How do you think that would work out?

 

[d4m10n]

If I'm scared of a gay man's penis because it might rape me, I'm homophobic.

I'm not sure about that. If you're imprisoned in a system which doesn't protect individual safety, this seems like a perfectly legitimate fear which ought to guide your behaviour, especially if gen pop isn't being treated w/ PrEP.

Women's fear of men is not so magically unique and special OR justified...

Nothing magical about it. Pregnancy is dangerous even now, but much moreso during the era of evolutionary adaptedness when our innate fears were laid down.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Really? Falsifying crime statistics is a very transparent ploy to discredit the trans rights movement. If Johnson gets away with this, the next step might be allowing native British felons to identify as Arabic. Just because something sounds Leftist doesn't mean it is.

The challenge is in getting progressive leftists to understand this.

Most females are leftists; the vast majority of feminists are progressives. That by itself ought to give the progressive leftists pause when it comes to this topic.

 

[Emily's Cat]

...in that society it wouldn't be particularly bizarre to say that trans women are fulfilling the same social role as cis women...

That perspective of an expected social role is a very real and very impactful barrier to females. This is a barrier we've spent well over a hundred years trying to fight.

 

[theprestige]

The difference is that the intact male and female human anatomies have been stable biological templates for at least a million years, and trans people have only the condition of perceiving one instead of the other. Whereas people with BID are perceiving themselves to be a form that almost never occurs naturally in anyone.

Being a female trapped in a male body also never occurs naturally in anyone.

 

[theprestige]

That's a much more succinct response than mine was.

d4mi0n, what would be the response if we defined "black" as anyone who is black by ethnicity or who performs the behaviors expected of a black person?

How do you think that would work out?

Was George Washington Carver really a black agronomist? Or did he just perform blackness and agronomy?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I've said this several times above, but I'll say it once again.

NOTICING THAT PEOPLE OFTEN TREAT MALES AND FEMALES DIFFERENTLY IS NOT THE SAME THING AS NORMALIZING IT

If you've some reason to believe I've been doing the latter rather than the former, I'm happy to clear things up.

When you use those stereotypes as an integral element of your definition of "woman", you ARE normalizing it. Even though that probably wasn't your intention.

I still don't see what's wrong with "Women are the set of people who are generally expected to perform femininity, either on account of sex or self-presentation."

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm not sure about that. If you're imprisoned in a system which doesn't protect individual safety, this seems like a perfectly legitimate fear which ought to guide your behaviour, especially if gen pop isn't being treated w/ PrEP.

We're not talking prison. I'm talking (purely hypothetically obviously because in the real world I literally could not care any less if I tried) about a gay man next to me in a locker room or bathroom.

 

[d4m10n]

d4mi0n, what would be the response if we defined "black" as anyone who is black by ethnicity or who performs the behaviors expected of a black person?

Is this so far from how "blackness" actually works? I suspect G._K._Butterfield^WP has a bit more European than African ancestry, but he is nevertheless accepted as a member of the Congressional Black Caucus because of his family history and his individual accomplishments in civil rights. If there is some sort of strict biological (rather than cultural) test for "blackness," let's see it.

When you use those stereotypes as an integral element of your definition of "woman", you ARE normalizing it.

I made no mention of negative stereotypes; you guys read that part in for obvious polemic reasons. Even if everything about femininity was framed by our culture in terms of positive character attributes (e.g. feminine self-restraint rather than masculine impulsiveness) or mere fashion choices, my definition would still work.

We're not talking prison.

I'm almost sure the issue of prison placement by gender vs. sex has come up quite a few times upthread.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're begging the question that this was an act of ideology. Anyway, according to Rolfe, they didn't have gender recognition certificates.

I'm not sure what it would be other than ideological capture and coercion. Honestly, the majority of the transwomen who get recorded as women for their crimes don't exactly pass, so it's not an honest mistake on the part of the courts. The crimes are being recorded based on the criminal's preferred gender identity.

Women are Human
Fair Play for Women

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm almost sure the issue of prison placement by gender vs. sex has come up quite a few times upthread.

Jesus Christ dude stop arguing so disingenuously. You don't get to pick and choose only the scenarios where you want.

I didn't say that prisons had never came up and you very well know it. Your response is dishonest and not in good faith.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's not something Johnson is doing. The police and the justice system have been captured by the trans lobby and I doubt if he even knows about it. He's not a details guy.

It wasn't me who said they didn't have GRCs, but the vast majority don't. Actually very few GRCs have been issued compared to the number simply calling themselves trans (and the ones who transitioned before GRCs were introduced). The police and the justice system have been told by the TRAs (Stonewall mainly) that transwomen are women and must be treated as such in every way, and they are going along with it. Even to the point of forcing female witnesses to refer to a defendant they perceive as male as "she".

Newspapers headline "Woman charged with possessing child porn" or whatever, and maybe in paragraph 10 once you've scrolled past the adverts there might be a quick reference to this woman having once been called Bert. It's been written into their code of practice. Again, by transactivist groups (mainly Stonewall) who farm themselves out as consultants and get paid for telling organisations to toe the trans line or else.

It was me... because the overwhelming majority of them don't.

For the rest of your post, yes, it is absolutely ideological capture. IIRC, Stonewall was even pushing the narrative that recognizing someone as their self-identified gender was the law of the land... when it was not the case.

 

[d4m10n]

Jesus Christ dude stop arguing so disingenuously. You don't get to pick and choose only the scenarios where you want.



I didn't say that prisons had never came up and you very well know it. Your response is dishonest and not in good faith.

You were making an analogy between homophobia and transphobia. Seems weird to carve out prisons as a special case which needn't be considered.

 

[Ron Obvious]

The difference is that the intact male and female human anatomies have been stable biological templates for at least a million years, and trans people have only the condition of perceiving one instead of the other. Whereas people with BID are perceiving themselves to be a form that almost never occurs naturally in anyone.

Jesus, what a load of waffle. There are and always have been plenty of people with missing limbs.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You were making an analogy between homophobia and transphobia. Seems weird to carve out prisons as a special case which needn't be considered.

What?

 

[Lithrael]

Pregnancy is dangerous even now, but much moreso during the era of evolutionary adaptedness when our innate fears were laid down.

Pregnancy has only been ridiculously dangerous since we stood up and narrowed our pelvic girdle. Most of our actual innate fears and various reflexive responses were laid down waaaay before that. Is ‘pregnancy can kill you’ really the type of fear that even CAN propagate as an innate (rather than learned) fear in an evolutionary setting?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Jesus, what a load of waffle. There are and always have been plenty of people with missing limbs.

Yeah but people with all four limbs that still "identify as amputees" have only popped up recently.

And yes that is a thing. It's not something I'm making up.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Good post, Sherkeu

The females will now need to alter their normal behavior to allow for the transwomen to feel a part of normal female behavior.

If it goes this way, it's going to be so very weird. Normal female behavior isn't really to shut oneself off in restrooms and showers and pretend that other people don't exist. We talk to each other in the restroom, where men generally don't. We have all kinds of interactions in restrooms and locker rooms, because to most females those are safe areas, free of male influence and male gaze. If a girl is having a rough time with her boyfriend or with something personal, she goes and cries in the bathroom at school, and that's where she talks to her female friends about the problem. Changing that behavior to one where we're all hidden away is going to be challenging.

Heck, I regularly share dressing rooms at the store with my mother or with a female friend, if the room is large enough. It makes it easier to get opinions on outfits, and it also frees up a room for someone else to use. I don't think this is particularly uncommon, I've seen plenty of other females doubled up in the dressing rooms when they're spacious, especially if the store is busy.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Good luck with that.

Can't tell if genuine or sarcastic...

 

[Emily's Cat]

Then it's quite clear that Stonewall is transphobic. We have a similar problem in the U.S. with antisemitic groups posing as Jewish lobbies. (It's possible to be phobic of oneself.)

I think it would be more appropriate to say that Stonewall is misogynistic, or even that they're homophobic. Stonewall isn't "posing" as a trans rights lobby, that's what they actually are, and have been for a long time.