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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Emily's Cat said:
Uhh... not really sure. You'd have to ask one of our local Ukers. Aber and Rolfe come to mind, but I think I'm forgetting one or two.
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Yes, but much of this is devolved to individual Police forces.

Stonewall (LGB pressure group) is a key equality adviser to many of them and is strongly backing T rights (eg in rugby).

At the UK level, the Government has backed away from Self-ID but the SNP has not. The Conservative Party is not (yet) looking at starting a Culture War, so much of the opposition seems to come from left wing feminists eg

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

https://twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham
 
Collin237 said:
I wonder what these people are up to. It is conceivable that a function approximator might determine gender from an MRI scan, which would be a significant step toward resolving the great debate.
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Not going to end the debate; it's moved on from "gender is ingrained and immutable".

Some argue that on some days they identify as a woman and on others as a man.
 
Aber said:
Not going to end the debate; it's moved on from "gender is ingrained and immutable".

Some argue that on some days they identify as a woman and on others as a man.
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A bisexual male is (note: not "argues that he is") sometimes sexually attracted to males, while at other times he is sexually attracted to females.

Would you classify bisexual people in the same "making it up as they go along" terms as you appear to be categorising gender-fluid people? And if not, why not?
 
caveman1917 said:
Indeed. It's why I always find it interesting when people feel the need to bring up "transwomen are valid" or something like that. If every lived condition is valid, then it adds nothing to the conversation by pointing it out. Which means the people bringing it up don't hold that every lived condition is valid, they consider some people invalid.
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Yes, of course. Seriously??

Someone, for example, might experience a lived condition of being able to converse with dead people. That would be classed as an invalid lived condition.

Again: seriously?
 
Aber said:
No, it's very much the opposite; they have lesbians splitting off because they feel they're being told they're transmen in denial.
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So they give lesbians a reason to be transphobic, and then send them off to spread the negativity. If that's not a phobia factory, what is it?
 
Emily's Cat said:
For example, in the UK they've reported an 80%+ increase in child molestations committed by "women". That's very misleading, because what's actually happened is that child molestations committed by self-identifying transwomen are being recorded as having been committed by females. Even though a fair number of those transwomen don't have gender recognition certificates, and their legal sex is still male.
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Do you happen to have the underlying (reliable) data for this?
 
Collin237 said:
So they give lesbians a reason to be transphobic, and then send them off to spread the negativity. If that's not a phobia factory, what is it?
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Noooooo. Again: Stonewall, as an institution and an organisation, is in favour of full transgender rights.

It's just a (small) number of people in (and connected with) Stonewall who are taking exception at Stonewall's pro-trans-rights position.
 
Rolfe said:
I think it's extremely likely that this could be done, if it hasn't already been done. The differences in pelvic structure between adult men and women are sufficiently great as to produce a pretty significant difference in gait.

Note that the developers of facial recognition software have already had to grovel to the trans-activists because their product is "transphobic". The software correctly recognises the person's real sex in an extremely high percentage of cases. The TRAs are upset, of course.

ETA: If you were talking about horses though, I don't think this is possible. There is not nearly sufficient sexual dimorphism in the musculoskeletal system.
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Transgender people don't change their sex, though.....
 
Sherkeu said:
This is a very confusing message.
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Is it really? It sounds incredibly simple to me. There are places where nudity is not appropriate and likely indicates someone up to no good and other places where it is completely normal such as when taking a shower. Regardless of biology. I'm pretty sure anyone capable of being toilet trained can handle that level of complexity.

There is also behaviour which is appropriate and inappropriate even in a shower situation. That might require a more sophisticated level of understanding but again neither sex nor gender is even relevant in that conversation.
 
For the females:

If you had a "room share" choice (whether through your company, student living, retreat, or cruise ship, etc...), how would you rank your choice, knowing nothing else?

1. Male gay, femme
2. Male gay, manly
2. Female, lesbian
3. Female, straight
4. Transwoman, lesbian
5. Transwoman, straight
6. Male, straight
7. Transman (any persuasion)


Think of it honestly before you read my answer!....



.....

.....




It is just me who would rank any female, either of the gay males, or a transman over choosing the trans women? Why is that?
(being honest...and I'm sure not the only one to think this!)



My initial guess is that I would predict that I may have some additional burden of having to affirm them and be cautious of my language so as not to trigger some dysphoria. With the others, I can relax, have fun, and be more myself.

I know humans can be crap no matter what, and many trans women are obviously quite lovely people -so it's all a gamble- but I'm basing it on the 'best compatibility' for me...not really intense fear of some criminal offense. Just what is more likely to be a good result in a living situation.

I think "which one of these people would be triggered by":
-me being on my period or with cramps
-speaking of a miscarriage or birth
-wearing a bikini or swimsuit they cannot
-having other attributes they do not have yet

Only the trans women fit the bill. Females don't care, men don't care, and transmen are glad to be rid of it (or at least it is a shared experience).

It just seems like something I'd rather avoid than risk offense.
 
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LondonJohn said:
A bisexual male is (note: not "argues that he is") sometimes sexually attracted to males, while at other times he is sexually attracted to females.

Would you classify bisexual people in the same "making it up as they go along" terms as you appear to be categorising gender-fluid people? And if not, why not?
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Because this is strawman, as you well know.

What rights are defined by sexual attraction vs what rights are connected with sex/gender?
 
LondonJohn said:
Noooooo. Again: Stonewall, as an institution and an organisation, is in favour of full transgender rights.

It's just a (small) number of people in (and connected with) Stonewall who are taking exception at Stonewall's pro-trans-rights position.
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You seem to have a lot of faith that they are what they seem to be. As an outsider, I'm saying look at what they've actually done and try to reevaluate them objectively.
 
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