Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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SuburbanTurkey said:
With the repudiation by the SNP, where does that leave the TERFs, politically speaking, in the UK? I can't recall, what was the result of the last TERF dustup in the Labour party?

Seems that TERF bigots are getting the boot from the major left wing political parties. Do they become politically homeless, or do they just fold into right wing parties who also have a strong distaste for trans people.
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I find your assumption of motivation to be wrong-headed. It goes hand-in-hand with your persistent dismissal of the concerns of females and your denigration of us wanting to retain our rights rather than rolling the clock back 50 years.
 
Collin237 said:
A person is a woman if her permanent internal perception of her body indicates that she has a female body. It's that simple.

Nobody is going to explain, on a blog, what it's like to be unaware of what their own genitalia is shaped like. That's too personal to put into words. So they find ways to avoid the question.
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Again, this is ludicrous.

It is central to current dogma that gender dysphoria is not needed to be transgender. In addition, the criteria for gender dysphoria do not require dissatisfaction with perception of the body or genitalia for diagnosis.

Gender ideology has nothing to do with gender dysphoria. Many trans activists want gender dysphoria abolished as a diagnosis. 'Trans identity' and gender dysphoria as a medical concept are in opposition to each other.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I doubt that was very much to do with wooing liberals and much more a ploy to drive up right wing turnout.

Culture war issues such as this are often a favorite for turning out the voters.
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Quite possibly.

Either way, those dark days are behind us, so that's good.

And, I don't think politicians ought to be basing their positions on what their constituents want, so much as they should be pushing their own beliefs, and hoping they match what their constituents want, or that they can persuade their constituents to vote for.

But, in terms of its political impact, if you look at this thread, the people you are calling transphobes, TERFs, bigots, etc. have a whole lot of liberal views. This is definitely an issue where a lot of Democratic voters disagree with the majority Democratic view. It's hard to believe that at least a few of those Democratic voters felt strongly enough about the issue that they decided to be Republican voters once in a while.
 
theprestige said:
Self-ID actually has been implemented in Canada. I hope this puts to rest your (mistaken) claim that self-ID was an exaggeration by anti-trans extremists with no real support from "actual liberals".
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No. It vindicates my claim. I said I thought there was somewhere where self-ID has been implemented, and I was proven right. I also said that the extremists were exaggerating, and in #1736 SuburbanTurkey corroborated that.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I very much doubt it. The TERF phenomena is very pronounced in the UK, but I don't perceive there being nearly as much left-wing anti-trans sentiment in the US.

Transphobia is very prevalent in the US, but from the right.

Likewise in Canada, the effort to oppose trans right from a lefty wing position totally failed. The UK, for whatever reason, has an unusual TERF stronghold that I don't see reproduced in other places.

If you have any evidence of a significant number of transphobic liberals splintering off in the US, I'd love to see it.
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If you manage to get in to the various feminist forums before the TRAs get them deplatformed, you'd see a rather large number of females leaving the Democratic party as a result of this.

The females who oppose it get systematically silenced, deplatformed, harassed, threatened, and attacked. Your claim to be unaware of opposition among liberals is evidence of how effective the persecution and propaganda has been.
 
Collin237 said:
Because in the case of gender, the evidence shows that surgery usually helps but mental therapy usually doesn't.
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Thanks. I'm happy to stipulate for now that the best medical evidence really does show this.

But this is a medical argument for gender reassignment surgery as the definitive criteria for what makes a transwoman a woman. Not self-ID. Not performing "woman" as a social construct.

And it's a medical argument for keeping pre-op transwomen in the men's locker room.

I suppose it's an argument that the medical diagnosis is the definitive criteria. Even if the person hasn't had the surgery yet, the fact that they've been diagnosed as needing it is sufficient.

And I'm okay with that.

But that is an argument against self-ID as well. It's an argument that access to the women's locker room should be allowed only to biological females, and to males who can produce the appropriate (legally binding) medical paperwork.

Is that the criteria you actually favor? Is that the argument you're actually making?
 
Meadmaker said:
Quite possibly.

Either way, those dark days are behind us, so that's good.

And, I don't think politicians ought to be basing their positions on what their constituents want, so much as they should be pushing their own beliefs, and hoping they match what their constituents want, or that they can persuade their constituents to vote for.

But, in terms of its political impact, if you look at this thread, the people you are calling transphobes, TERFs, bigots, etc. have a whole lot of liberal views. This is definitely an issue where a lot of Democratic voters disagree with the majority Democratic view. It's hard to believe that at least a few of those Democratic voters felt strongly enough about the issue that they decided to be Republican voters once in a while.
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True enough. Keep in mind that many American liberals are only considered liberal because our Overton window is so skewed to the right. Large portions of our liberal party would probably be considered center-right conservatives in most of our peer nations. Many of our liberals aren't very progressive at all.

Even with the victories like the Biden EO ordering an end to trans discrimination, I suspect the US will be one of the last Western nations to fully endorse trans rights as a matter of law. It's a deeply reactionary, culturally conservative country.

It's important to remember how slow we were with gay rights. The SCOTUS really saved the day there too, because if it was Congress that had to outlaw gay discrimination, I very much doubt we'd even have got there yet. It would have been a very nasty, openly bigoted debate. The SCOTUS decision defused the whole thing.

Likewise with the Bostock decision. The SCOTUS made a good ruling that is great for trans rights, but let's not be fooled that the consensus of the nation is pro-trans rights.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Can you elaborate? I'm not following how to relate your statement to the overall concept.
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You grasp part of it in your own post #1805
Out of a desire to not cause hurt ("I have no problem with men who wish to be called 'her'") one gives in to a denial of reality because someone else really, really, really wants reality to be different.
The seemingly harmless willingness to play along enables further demands for concessions to what is not real (concessions which logically follow if the initial denial is allowed BTW).
As the demands move further and further from reality, one finds oneself regretting the earlier concessions.

Slippery-slope.
 
Collin237 said:
No. It vindicates my claim. I said I thought there was somewhere where self-ID has been implemented, and I was proven right. I also said that the extremists were exaggerating, and in #1736 SuburbanTurkey corroborated that.
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You know we can read what you wrote, and follow the flow of the conversation, right?

Collin237 said:
Emily's Cat said:
The current push is that in order to be transgender, a person shouldn't need to present as their identified gender, nor should they need to undergo any treatment of any sort, right?
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Obviously that's what the extremists claim in order to make fun of the idea. Do you have evidence of any actual liberal saying such a thing?
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You claimed that self-id with no diagnosis or transition efforts at all was hyperbole put forth by extremists to mock the trans activist agenda... and you challenged whether any "actual liberals' say such a thing.

Collin237 said:
My position is:
1. Self-ID with criteria is possible.
2. Self-ID without criteria is highly improbable.
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You furthermore expressed doubt and disbelief that self-id without criteria was likely.

When shown that not only is it likely, it is actually in effect right now in several locations... You moved the goal posts.
 
Collin237 said:
No. It vindicates my claim. I said I thought there was somewhere where self-ID has been implemented, and I was proven right. I also said that the extremists were exaggerating, and in #1736 SuburbanTurkey corroborated that.
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No.

You said specifically that this...

"The current push is that in order to be transgender, a person shouldn't need to present as their identified gender, nor should they need to undergo any treatment of any sort, right?"​

... Was an extremist exaggeration "in order to make fun of the idea." You then asked: "Do you have evidence of any actual liberal saying such a thing?"

It turns out that not only is it not an exaggeration, the idea is actually a mainstream progressive idea.

It turns out that we have evidence that actual liberals have not only been saying such a thing, they've actually been implementing such a thing as public policy in a number of jurisdictions.

Will you now concede that Emily's Cat was not exaggerating when she said, "[t]he current push is that in order to be transgender, a person shouldn't need to present as their identified gender, nor should they need to undergo any treatment of any sort"?

Will you now concede that, far from exaggerating, Emily's Cat has accurately and moderately described the actual current push, as evidenced in recent public policy enacted in places like Canada and California?
 
Distracted1 said:
You grasp part of it in your own post #1805
Out of a desire to not cause hurt ("I have no problem with men who wish to be called 'her'") one gives in to a denial of reality because someone else really, really, really wants reality to be different.
The seemingly harmless willingness to play along enables further demands for concessions to what is not real (concessions which logically follow if the initial denial is allowed BTW).
As the demands move further and further from reality, one finds oneself regretting the earlier concessions.

Slippery-slope.
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Gotcha - thank you for elaborating :)

It falls in line with the link Rolfe provided quite some time ago - "Pronouns are Rohypnol".

It's a tough spot. I'm sympathetically willing to use pronouns for courtesy... but yes, that next step gets messy. And it's happening already, there's been a large number of violent and sexual crimes committed over the past handful of years that are being recorded based on the perpetrator's gender identity rather than their sex. So now we see things like the BBC reporting that molestation of children by "women" has increased 84%!!!!!

It hasn't. Females still molest children at an extremely low rate. But when male molesters are getting recorded as "women" it presents a false narrative with respect to crime and behavioral patterns.
 
Elaedith said:
Gender ideology has nothing to do with gender dysphoria. Many trans activists want gender dysphoria abolished as a diagnosis. 'Trans identity' and gender dysphoria as a medical concept are in opposition to each other.
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That may be changing. The inauguration of Joe Biden has started a "fringe reset", as ThePrestige calls it. Zinnia Jones is a few years ahead of the curve on this.

https://genderanalysis.net/
 
theprestige said:
Thanks. I'm happy to stipulate for now that the best medical evidence really does show this.

But this is a medical argument for gender reassignment surgery as the definitive criteria for what makes a transwoman a woman. Not self-ID. Not performing "woman" as a social construct.

And it's a medical argument for keeping pre-op transwomen in the men's locker room.

I suppose it's an argument that the medical diagnosis is the definitive criteria. Even if the person hasn't had the surgery yet, the fact that they've been diagnosed as needing it is sufficient.

And I'm okay with that.

But that is an argument against self-ID as well. It's an argument that access to the women's locker room should be allowed only to biological females, and to males who can produce the appropriate (legally binding) medical paperwork.

Is that the criteria you actually favor? Is that the argument you're actually making?
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Yes, provided that the legal and medical procedures are publicly funded.
 
Emily's Cat said:
So... a butch female who prefers workboots and overalls isn't a woman?
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I've known a few of these women and they claim to have been burdened by feminine expectations (typically in their youth) on account of their sex.

Emily's Cat said:
Holy hell. I've been on lockdown since last March, and I stopped shaving my legs and pits then, and I almost never wear make-up. Apparently I'm a man now?
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That depends upon whether you experience the social expectations of femininity on account of your sex. Do people perceive you as the sort of person for whom masculine expectations are more appropriate?

Rolfe said:
I don't accept that I need to perform any sort of paticular behaviour to justify my inclusion in the class of "women".
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No one here said you "need to perform" anything. I expect that being perceived as female is quite enough for people to modify their expectations regarding the norms of femininity and masculinity. Unless Scotland is rather different than other Anglophone nations, that is.
 
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d4m10n said:
I've known a few of these women and they claim to have been burdened by feminine expectations (typically in their youth) on account of their sex.

That depends upon whether you experience the social expectations of femininity on account of your sex. Do people perceive you as the sort of person for whom masculine expectations are more appropriate?
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Seems like you are making an argument against the expectations themselves, like an old-fashioned Liberal.
The expectations are the source of the discrimination- not the identity of the person who insists that they be applied to him/her.
 
Collin237 said:
That may be changing. The inauguration of Joe Biden has started a "fringe reset", as ThePrestige calls it. Zinnia Jones is a few years ahead of the curve on this.

https://genderanalysis.net/
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Um, no. If you are getting your ideas from sites like that and activists like Zinnia Jones, no wonder you are confused.

From what you have said, you can't distinguish actual science from ideologically motivated pseudo-science such as that on the site you linked to.

You can't be a scientific realist as you stated and also believe in ideologically-motivated science. It is a fundamental principle of science that you don't decide first what conclusions would be emotionally and politically desirable, then reverse engineer research and science to fit them. Gender identity ideology is based on queer theory, which is heavily grounded in postmodernism. This is at diametric odds with scientific realism and scientific scepticism.

Trans activists construct a narrative based on ideology, then declare all research not fitting the narrative to be 'discredited' and the researchers transphobic. They attempt to ruin the careers of, harass, deplatform, censor and even physically threaten academics and scientists who dissent from the narrative. But according to postmodern views, there is no distinction between science and ideology. Without any concept of objective truth or scientific realism, there is just a never-ending struggle to ensure one's own narrative becomes dominant by silencing others.
 
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