Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Butter!]

I'm hoping you didn't expect everyone one else outside your company to have to make the same effort.

 

[Butter!]

I started out with this view, in good faith. I've since back-tracked on it. Mostly because it leaves me and other adult human females without a term with which to reference ourselves while retaining our humanity.

But also... because "stag" isn't a feeling in the head of an adult male deer, nor is "mare" a feeling in the head of an adult female horse. A "hen" isn't an identity, nor is a "bull".

Other parts of my views are becoming less progressive as well. For example, I've come to think that drag queens are highly offensive. Drag shows are essentially minstrel shows... only instead of "blackface", they're putting on "womanface" and performing the worst and most regressive stereotypes as entertainment.

I've seen a number of drag shows over the years, and in my early twenties, I also hung out with a drag troupe (and even had a small role in one of their shows once). This probably isn't something I'm supposed to say, but I personally have noticed that drag performed by straight men or trans lesbians often seems much more misogynistic at the roots than drag performed by gay men. I don't really know why that is, and my sample set has been very small, so it could even be a coincidence.

The gay drag performers I've known always seemed to be laughing at themselves and fashion culture and gender roles overall, not so much at women and girls. But I don't know, and like I said, I'm probably not even supposed to think stuff like that. It's just something I kind of noticed along the way. If I had to guess, I'd say it has to do with the performers' socialization growing up.

My info is outdated, regardless. I haven't seen a drag show or been around drag in a decade.

 

[Butter!]

Oh crap, I said "trans lesbians" in my post above, when what I meant was "trans gay men." ****, that's a pretty bad slip. I apologize. I was at work and trying to post on the sly, which is a good setting for one-liners, not thoughtful posts. Please excuse me. Seriously, I did not mean to do that, and it's not indicative of my inner thoughts. I was just distracted and got confused, because I'm dumb.

 

[Rolfe]

Don't apologise. Too many women being shamed into issuing grovelling apologies for saying something deemed to be out of turn. Let's not go there.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Interesting tweet from "Fair Play for Women", A UK org

Here's the start of the long-ish thread:
Tonight the @BBCRadio4 documentary 'File On Four' made the claim that growing numbers of women are sexually abusing children. The data cannot be used to show this because police no longer record a perpetrator sex. They now record self-identified gender. The BBC claims “Between 2015 and 2019, the numbers of reported cases of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse to police in England and Wales rose from 1,249 to 2,297 – an increase of 84%.“ The vast majority of child sexual abuse is committed by the male sex. The Crime Survey for England and Wales revealed 96% of adults asked about their experiences of child sexual abuse said it involved a male perpetrator. It is unusual for a lone perpetrator to be female. A similar trend is seen in police crime reports. In the year up to March 2019 there were 73260 reports of child sexual abuse. The BBC says over same time period there were 2297 reports of CSA in which the perpetrator was recorded as female; representing just 3% of all reports. Are more women really committing child sexual abuse?
The answer is we simply don’t know. It’s impossible to make this claim from the data available. For starters, we don’t know if there has been a general increase in reporting of CSA or if this is an increase specific to females only. ONS notes that “police recorded crime data are not designated as National Statistics” and “comparisons should not be made between years".

 

[Sherkeu]

Oh crap, I said "trans lesbians" in my post above, when what I meant was "trans gay men." ****, that's a pretty bad slip. I apologize. I was at work and trying to post on the sly, which is a good setting for one-liners, not thoughtful posts. Please excuse me. Seriously, I did not mean to do that, and it's not indicative of my inner thoughts. I was just distracted and got confused, because I'm dumb.

I thought I understood your first post as both groups being people born as male and both attracted to women....
... but now I'm not sure if you mean a gay man who is performing as a trans woman or a person born female (and now a trans man) performing as a man who is attracted to men.

I suppose it is because the word 'gay' can refer to either sex.

Perhaps there are not many trans women who are attracted to women who do drag. ??

 

[Meadmaker]

trans gay men? That would be biological females who identify as male, are attracted to males? And if they are doing drag, that would mean a biological female dressing as a woman, even though he identifies as a man?

ETA: I think that first part should be biological females who identify as males but are attracted to men, not necessarily to males, because the males might be women, and if the trans men are gay they wouldn't be attracted to women.

 

[Butter!]

I thought I understood your first post as both groups being people born as male and both attracted to women....
... but now I'm not sure if you mean a gay man who is performing as a trans woman or a person born female (and now a trans man) performing as a man who is attracted to men.

I suppose it is because the word 'gay' can refer to either sex.

Perhaps there are not many trans women who are attracted to women who do drag. ??

Yeah, sorry. I was referring to gay trans men, as in people born female who identify as male and are attracted to men. The few I have known (and it's only 3, so again, small sample size - also, this was deep back in the day, as I mentioned) - they seemed to frequently go out of their way to be sort of misogynistic, usually in joking ways of course, but still. I always thought it was their way of distancing themselves from their unwanted birth sex.

And yes, some drag shows would often go out of their way to be confusing in that sense. Like men dressed as women dressed as men, stuff like that. I think a number of those people were the types who would identify as non-binary now, but back then I really don't remember that term being around.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Maybe a good place to start addressing your reactionary incomprehension might be...... to actually try to seek out Izzard's own understanding of her condition. After all, she's a very articulate and apparently very intelligent person. Or would you prefer to keep labelling her with your own bigoted interpretations?

Eddie Izzard hasn't requested a name change and has stated no intention of undergoing any sort of hormonal or surgical treatment.

In the past, Izzard has referred to themself as a transvestite - that's their own label. Now, Izzard refers to themself as a transwoman. The only thing that has changed is the label that they themselves are using.

There is literally no other difference here.

So... where's the "bigotry" that you're busy judging me for?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Eddie Izzard hasn't requested a name change and has stated no intention of undergoing any sort of hormonal or surgical treatment.

In the past, Izzard has referred to themself as a transvestite - that's their own label. Now, Izzard refers to themself as a transwoman. The only thing that has changed is the label that they themselves are using.

There is literally no other difference here.

So... where's the "bigotry" that you're busy judging me for?

That's the only thing that has changed, to your eye, in the past few decades?

You honestly can't think of any reason why someone might have identified as transvestite years ago, and as as transwoman now? You can't see why growing acceptance of trans people might change the way someone might view themselves and present themselves to the world?

You are, generally speaking, aware of the concept of being "closeted", right?

"Why didn't this person refer to themselves as a trans woman back when doing so would have had missive social stigma attached to it?" is an absurd criticism.

Next you're going to tell me you're shocked that the two "roommates" of 30 years are actually gay men!

 

[Ziggurat]

You are, generally speaking, aware of the concept of being "closeted", right?

"Why didn't this person refer to themselves as a trans woman back when doing so would have had missive social stigma attached to it?" is an absurd criticism.

Next you're going to tell me you're shocked that the two "roommates" of 30 years are actually gay men!

Imagine two roommates who kiss each other on the lips in public. Are they closeted? No, they are not.

I don't pay any attention to Izzard, so I cannot speak to the accuracy of this. But Emily explicitly stated that nothing about Izzard's behavior has changed. If that is correct (and I have no knowledge either way), that's a pretty strong indicator that there is no closet involved here, at least not one that Izzard has actually come out of. The whole point of coming out of the closet isn't to get people to change the labels they apply to you, it's so that you can act publicly the way you want to act instead of putting up a fake front. There's no point in "coming out" if you already act the way you want to OR you continue to put up a fake front.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I've seen a number of drag shows over the years, and in my early twenties, I also hung out with a drag troupe (and even had a small role in one of their shows once). This probably isn't something I'm supposed to say, but I personally have noticed that drag performed by straight men or trans lesbians often seems much more misogynistic at the roots than drag performed by gay men. I don't really know why that is, and my sample set has been very small, so it could even be a coincidence.

The gay drag performers I've known always seemed to be laughing at themselves and fashion culture and gender roles overall, not so much at women and girls. But I don't know, and like I said, I'm probably not even supposed to think stuff like that. It's just something I kind of noticed along the way. If I had to guess, I'd say it has to do with the performers' socialization growing up.

My info is outdated, regardless. I haven't seen a drag show or been around drag in a decade.

You're allowed to think - and say - whatever the hell you want. There's a chance that someone may be offended by what you say, but nobody has a right to not be offended.

Additionally, women being conditioned to feel that they're not allowed to think that their situations are screwed up is a component of why women are still treated as unequal throughout the otherwise developed world.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Interesting tweet from "Fair Play for Women", A UK org

Here's the start of the long-ish thread:
Tonight the @BBCRadio4 documentary 'File On Four' made the claim that growing numbers of women are sexually abusing children. The data cannot be used to show this because police no longer record a perpetrator sex. They now record self-identified gender. The BBC claims “Between 2015 and 2019, the numbers of reported cases of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse to police in England and Wales rose from 1,249 to 2,297 – an increase of 84%.“ The vast majority of child sexual abuse is committed by the male sex. The Crime Survey for England and Wales revealed 96% of adults asked about their experiences of child sexual abuse said it involved a male perpetrator. It is unusual for a lone perpetrator to be female. A similar trend is seen in police crime reports. In the year up to March 2019 there were 73260 reports of child sexual abuse. The BBC says over same time period there were 2297 reports of CSA in which the perpetrator was recorded as female; representing just 3% of all reports. Are more women really committing child sexual abuse?
The answer is we simply don’t know. It’s impossible to make this claim from the data available. For starters, we don’t know if there has been a general increase in reporting of CSA or if this is an increase specific to females only. ONS notes that “police recorded crime data are not designated as National Statistics” and “comparisons should not be made between years".

That's one of the concerns I voiced a while back with respect to the Trans Agenda. Referring to criminals - especially in cases of sexual aggression and domestic violence - by their preferred gender provides cover for the continuation of crimes that disproportionately harm women and children, committed by males. It masks the pattern of male violence, and gives the false impression that females are committing more crimes of this sort.

 

[Butter!]

You're allowed to think - and say - whatever the hell you want. There's a chance that someone may be offended by what you say, but nobody has a right to not be offended.

Additionally, women being conditioned to feel that they're not allowed to think that their situations are screwed up is a component of why women are still treated as unequal throughout the otherwise developed world.

I worded that poorly. I didn't really mean it in the sense of "thoughtcrime." I just often catch myself thinking uncharitable things, so I try to be aware that there could be more to a situation than what I'm seeing.

 

[Butter!]

That's one of the concerns I voiced a while back with respect to the Trans Agenda. Referring to criminals - especially in cases of sexual aggression and domestic violence - by their preferred gender provides cover for the continuation of crimes that disproportionately harm women and children, committed by males. It masks the pattern of male violence, and gives the false impression that females are committing more crimes of this sort.

Yeah, this is one that concerned me too, and it's what I was referring to when I listed "statistics" as one of the reasons I object to the redefinition of sex (again, not talking about gender - it seems necessary to clarify in the context of this discussion).

I understand that the argument can be made that trans women are women, and therefore the statistics would be correct, but that position doesn't seem like a very strong one when we're specifically talking about sex crimes that require certain "equipment" to commit (or to fall victim to). That's a precise area where genitals really do matter, I think. Furthermore, self-ID could present problems of extreme (and possibly even deliberate) statistical confusion.

These aren't bigoted statements. The world is a big place, and it's really hard to find ways to balance everyone's rights and desires. Discussion is needed.


ETA - Of course, if we had 4 categories instead of 2, then it could work. Male gender/male sex, female gender/female sex, male gender/female sex, female gender/male sex. If crime rates were reported that way, then it doesn't seem as though there wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's one of the concerns I voiced a while back with respect to the Trans Agenda. Referring to criminals - especially in cases of sexual aggression and domestic violence - by their preferred gender provides cover for the continuation of crimes that disproportionately harm women and children, committed by males. It masks the pattern of male violence, and gives the false impression that females are committing more crimes of this sort.

Titania McGrath strikes again:

"Given that women are woefully underrepresented in the prison population, a male criminal choosing to identify as female can only be a good thing."

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's the only thing that has changed, to your eye, in the past few decades?

You honestly can't think of any reason why someone might have identified as transvestite years ago, and as as transwoman now? You can't see why growing acceptance of trans people might change the way someone might view themselves and present themselves to the world?

You are, generally speaking, aware of the concept of being "closeted", right?

"Why didn't this person refer to themselves as a trans woman back when doing so would have had missive social stigma attached to it?" is an absurd criticism.

Next you're going to tell me you're shocked that the two "roommates" of 30 years are actually gay men!

Izzard was pretty open about his penchant for wearing women's clothing and make-up. There only closet involved is the one in which he kept his dresses. He did an entire comedy special dressed in a very flattering chinese-styled dress.

At the end of the day, Izzard is a penis-bearing adult male who dresses in clothing traditionally assumed to be worn by females of the species, and who adorns their face with make-up traditionally assumed to be used by females of the species. Izzard has stated no intention of undergoing any hormone therapy, nor of having any surgery at all.

The only difference is literally the label being used... and that NOW a pile of people would jump at the chance to demand that Izzard (who is sexually attracted to females) should have unfettered access to all women's spaces on the basis of his self-proclamation that he is now a woman.

I think Izzard is a great person. Funny and charismatic. But there's LITERALLY no difference between Izzard's prior behavior and comportment and Izzard's current behavior and comportment.

But somehow, with Izzard's claim to a specific label, the entire rest of humanity is expected to THINK differently about him, and to PRETEND that there's no difference between him and any other female person.

It's absurd to think that a personal proclamation dictates an obligation to the rest of society.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I love the term "gender lysenkoism".

 

[Emily's Cat]

I worded that poorly. I didn't really mean it in the sense of "thoughtcrime." I just often catch myself thinking uncharitable things, so I try to be aware that there could be more to a situation than what I'm seeing.

I get you. But you're still allowed to think and say uncharitable things. Acknowledging that it's speculation is fine. Just don't fall into the trap of falsely pretending that women are supposed to always be nice and supportive and think kind thoughts.

 

[theprestige]

I've become a trans-activism-phobe.