Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[d4m10n]

Maybe a good place to start addressing your reactionary incomprehension might be...... to actually try to seek out Izzard's own understanding of her condition.

I've an ongoing and personal relationship w/ Jesus; how dare you doubt my subjective experience thereof?!

 

[Sherkeu]

Maybe a good place to start addressing your reactionary incomprehension might be...... to actually try to seek out Izzard's own understanding of her condition. After all, she's a very articulate and apparently very intelligent person. Or would you prefer to keep labelling her with your own bigoted interpretations?

Eddie is brilliant, but doesn't seem all that fussed about the pronouns she/he may prefer. When she is in 'girl mode' it's 'she' and in 'boy mode' a 'he'. He isn't one to commit to one gender entirely, though likely more she than he these days.

 

[theprestige]

Maybe a good place to start addressing your reactionary incomprehension might be...... to actually try to seek out Izzard's own understanding of her condition. After all, she's a very articulate and apparently very intelligent person. Or would you prefer to keep labelling her with your own bigoted interpretations?

Well, Eddie Izzard isn't a member here, but Boudicca is. And her understanding of her condition seems confused, abusive, willfully ignorant, and extremely bigoted.

 

[d4m10n]

Interesting perspectives here:

https://twitter.com/MsBlaireWhite/status/1350169662886014978

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[Louden Wilde]

Interesting perspectives here:

https://twitter.com/MsBlaireWhite/status/1350169662886014978

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

Thanks.

Another I recommend is a UK physician who goes by the handle "Watson", but her profile pic is that of Rosalind Franklin (famously overlooked in the hype that Watson & Crick got for the double helix discovery, despite contributing key data):

This is a good thread of hers


"la scapigliata" is similar (UK feminist physician, outspoken on these issues),

Also, Emma Hilton (a UK developmental biologist) is co-author on a new letter in the Irish Journal of Medical Science titled The reality of sex

 

[theprestige]

Interesting perspectives here:

https://twitter.com/MsBlaireWhite/status/1350169662886014978

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

For some reason Twitter has started showing me monochrome rectangles in an assortment of colors, instead of tweets cited in other tweets. When I click on the rectangle to go to the original tweet being cited, Twitter gives me an error message.

Does anyone have any idea what's going on there? I've tried searching for an explanation, several times over the past few weeks, but the search results are all talking about other things than what I'm looking for.

---

Anyway, I like the implied dichotomy of "... you know what point he was making. This is petty semantics."

Words mean things. If someone uses a particular word to make an important point, and someone else protests that this mangles the existing meanings of the word... You can't rebut that by saying the word used isn't important and is just a semantic quibble.

 

[Rolfe]

For some reason Twitter has started showing me monochrome rectangles in an assortment of colors, instead of tweets cited in other tweets. When I click on the rectangle to go to the original tweet being cited, Twitter gives me an error message.

Does anyone have any idea what's going on there? I've tried searching for an explanation, several times over the past few weeks, but the search results are all talking about other things than what I'm looking for.

That happens to me if a twitter page is loading at the moment my internet goes down. It may be a problem with your wifi signal.

 

[LondonJohn]

Eddie is brilliant, but doesn't seem all that fussed about the pronouns she/he may prefer. When she is in 'girl mode' it's 'she' and in 'boy mode' a 'he'. He isn't one to commit to one gender entirely, though likely more she than he these days.

Well that's somewhat irrelevant in the context of the original tweet and my respose to it. The original tweet was claiming that there was effectively no difference between a transvestite and a transgender person; and the same tweet also simplistically (and incorrectly) implied that transgender identity was in essence no different from transvestism.

Izzard appears (from an analysis of her own public statements) to have spent a good few decades of adulthood expressing something usually called transvestism (or to be more accurate, fluidity in clothing and personal appearance between that conventionally ascribed to men and women).... but then to have more recently moved from that towards something akin to true gender fluidity (which has connotations well beyond the externalities of clothing and personal appearance).

And whether Izzard's gender fluidity means that sometimes she would like to be considered to be a women, while at other times he would like to be considered as a man..... is her/his own personal internal matter. I would make one general observation about Izzard: she appears to be a thoughtful and rational person, who seems to have a level of quiet dignity about her own gender identity choices (and as part of this, she doesn't seem to want to wade into trans-activism. I'd say that trying to learn - with an open and respectful mind - about Izzard's condition, by relying as much as possible on the primary source (i.e. the public statements of Izzard herself), might serve as a very good way to acquire an education and an insight into trans-identity matters.



Incidentally - but relevantly - the child of a friend of mine is currently working on a PhD at Cambridge uni. The child is female (biologically), was raised as a woman, and was effectively a woman throughout her undergrad studies. I've met them several times, and they appear to me to be exceptionally intelligent, mentally well-balanced, articulate and rational. While completing their undergrad degree, they began to experience levels of discomfort with their assigned gender identity (i.e. "woman"), feeling instead that their lived gender identity was more-or-less indeterminate. They started wearing completely gender-neutral clothing and cut their hair short.

So as things stand right now, my friend's child considers themselves to be neither "man" nor "woman". And they appear to have reached that realisation with a sound mind and without any persuasive factors (e.g. the pull of trans-activists). And they live with their boyfriend in what appears to be a biologically "normal" relationship. I - and my friend, their father - find it extremely hard to believe that all of this was some sort of mental health aberration or illness, or some sort of "fad". So there we are.....

 

[d4m10n]

And whether Izzard's gender fluidity means that sometimes she would like to be considered to be a women, while at other times he would like to be considered as a man..... is her/his own personal internal matter.

This is obviously false; to the extent others will be accused of intolerance and phobia for failing to treat Izzard correctly, this is a matter of public social norms.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, Eddie Izzard isn't a member here, but Boudicca is. And her understanding of her condition seems confused, abusive, willfully ignorant, and extremely bigoted.

I will partially agree with what you've written. But

1) the quote to which I was responding was specifically concerning Izzard, and I am struggling to figure out just why Boudicca90 might have (or be required to have, from interlocutors within this thread) any reliable insight into Izzard's own lived condition;

and

2) in any case, there are plenty of reliably-obtained insights, from individual transgender people, and from the expert medical professionals who assist transgender people, which are readily available out there in the wider world outside this thread. And from additive and comparative learning from these multiple sources, it's very easy to obtain a valid understanding of what gender dysphoria and trans-identity are (and, importantly, what they are not). Again, I have no idea quite why you seem to be keen to use the insight of just one person (Boudicca90) to form the basis of your understanding of the condition.

 

[LondonJohn]

This is obviously false; to the extent others will be accused of intolerance and phobia for failing to treat Izzard correctly, this is a matter of public social norms.

Uhhhh, that's only a second-order issue.

To use an analogy: a bisexual male has (genuine) sexual desires for both males and females. Sometimes he will desire gay sex with another male; at other times, he may desire hetero sex with a female.

And yes, if certain other people fail to treat this male correctly - and not, for example, to consider him as a "normal" heterosexual who has some sort of mental illness which makes him think he is sometimes sexually attracted to other males - then those other people will rightly be accused of intolerance and phobia.

 

[Meadmaker]

So as things stand right now, my friend's child considers themselves to be neither "man" nor "woman". And they appear to have reached that realisation with a sound mind and without any persuasive factors (e.g. the pull of trans-activists). And they live with their boyfriend in what appears to be a biologically "normal" relationship. I - and my friend, their father - find it extremely hard to believe that all of this was some sort of mental health aberration or illness, or some sort of "fad". So there we are.....

Well if you can't trust personal incredulity, what can you trust?

However, that's not important now. You just told a story about two people living together, and then one of them changes their clothes, hairstyle, and pronouns, and they continue to ****.

Connect the dots for me from that story to "The person with the penis gets to watch my daughter take off her clothes before swim class."

 

[Sherkeu]

Well that's somewhat irrelevant in the context of the original tweet and my respose to it. The original tweet was claiming that there was effectively no difference between a transvestite and a transgender person; and the same tweet also simplistically (and incorrectly) implied that transgender identity was in essence no different from transvestism.

Izzard appears (from an analysis of her own public statements) to have spent a good few decades of adulthood expressing something usually called transvestism (or to be more accurate, fluidity in clothing and personal appearance between that conventionally ascribed to men and women).... but then to have more recently moved from that towards something akin to true gender fluidity (which has connotations well beyond the externalities of clothing and personal appearance).

And whether Izzard's gender fluidity means that sometimes she would like to be considered to be a women, while at other times he would like to be considered as a man..... is her/his own personal internal matter. I would make one general observation about Izzard: she appears to be a thoughtful and rational person, who seems to have a level of quiet dignity about her own gender identity choices (and as part of this, she doesn't seem to want to wade into trans-activism. I'd say that trying to learn - with an open and respectful mind - about Izzard's condition, by relying as much as possible on the primary source (i.e. the public statements of Izzard herself), might serve as a very good way to acquire an education and an insight into trans-identity matters.

I thought it odd you'd say Emily Cats post was bigoted by not seeing much difference in transvestism and transgender, when the person is ok with their body remaining as male, and perhaps not being a woman full time.

Is being a transvestite (or labeled one) considered undignified? It seems anyone who has an internal desire to dress in feminine women's clothes and "be a woman" (at least for that time period) could now be considered a trans woman and would want that label instead, or perhaps the more appropriate "fluid". The word transvestite has gone nearly out the window, as if they are "less than" the true non-conforming-gender-presenting individuals who deserve respect.

I don't see anything wrong with being either or why one should be in need of more deference and understanding.

 

[cullennz]

Well that's somewhat irrelevant in the context of the original tweet and my respose to it. The original tweet was claiming that there was effectively no difference between a transvestite and a transgender person; and the same tweet also simplistically (and incorrectly) implied that transgender identity was in essence no different from transvestism.

Izzard appears (from an analysis of her own public statements) to have spent a good few decades of adulthood expressing something usually called transvestism (or to be more accurate, fluidity in clothing and personal appearance between that conventionally ascribed to men and women).... but then to have more recently moved from that towards something akin to true gender fluidity (which has connotations well beyond the externalities of clothing and personal appearance).

And whether Izzard's gender fluidity means that sometimes she would like to be considered to be a women, while at other times he would like to be considered as a man..... is her/his own personal internal matter. I would make one general observation about Izzard: she appears to be a thoughtful and rational person, who seems to have a level of quiet dignity about her own gender identity choices (and as part of this, she doesn't seem to want to wade into trans-activism. I'd say that trying to learn - with an open and respectful mind - about Izzard's condition, by relying as much as possible on the primary source (i.e. the public statements of Izzard herself), might serve as a very good way to acquire an education and an insight into trans-identity matters.

The bloke has said publicly he doesn't care what pronouns he gets given so forgive me if I think trying to second guesswhat "gender" people are on any given day is incredibly stupid.

Which I think he would agree with.

 

[Minoosh]

Interesting perspectives here:

https://twitter.com/MsBlaireWhite/status/1350169662886014978

When someone links to a tweet I look at the little message and don't know what to do next unless I get a heads up (like, "video embedded in tweet"). I don't really know who Blaire White or Chase Strangio but are they are disagreeing, right? I'm missing the significance, I'm pretty sure. But a few tweets down there were baby hedgehogs, which are adorable.

That's my takeaway.

 

[Marcus]

I thought it odd you'd say Emily Cats post was bigoted by not seeing much difference in transvestism and transgender, when the person is ok with their body remaining as male, and perhaps not being a woman full time.

Is being a transvestite (or labeled one) considered undignified? It seems anyone who has an internal desire to dress in feminine women's clothes and "be a woman" (at least for that time period) could now be considered a trans woman and would want that label instead, or perhaps the more appropriate "fluid". The word transvestite has gone nearly out the window, as if they are "less than" the true non-conforming-gender-presenting individuals who deserve respect.

I don't see anything wrong with being either or why one should be in need of more deference and understanding.

The way I understand it "transvestite" is now a slur. I think you are supposed to refer to a man who likes to dress as a woman but doesn't claim to be one as a "cross dresser". Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[d4m10n]

I don't really know who Blaire White or Chase Strangio but are they are disagreeing, right?

I'm pretty sure they are disagreeing about what the word "biological" should be taken to mean in the context of discussions about "biological males," etc.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[lionking]

I had an experience today which demonstrates how bureaucratic issues can cause problems for transgender young people, even in a fairly tolerant and liberal democracy like Australia.

My job is to work with apprentices and their employers to get the apprenticeship underway. It's a great pre-retirement job and I love it. Anyway I had the task of getting a hairdressing apprenticeship sign-up completed. The employer sent me an email with the apprentice's details, and pointed out that the legal name was Jazzmin, but the preferred name was Daniel, so I guessed that transgenderism was in play.

So Daniel was 18 years old and was likely undergoing HRT as he was growing a decent beard. But then the problems arose. His ID (Drivers Licence) had his female name, so I explained we had to use this until it was legally changed. He, quite rightly, wanted to record his sex as "Male" (the forms we use only have binary sex choices, and no allowance for different genders). But there are previous training records with Jazzmin as female. And I do not want to put file notes on the record, which anyone with access can read, to explain that Daniel is transgender.

I have pushed this up the line to get some advice. Daniel is going to have enough issues to deal with, without some petty bureaucrat questioning him.

We can't discriminate on the basis of gender identity in Australia, but we also don't make it easy.

As an aside, with Daniel's obvious female appearance and voice (despite the beard) decades of conditioning had me on the verge of referring to him as she many times. Sometimes misgendering isn't a callous disregard for someone's identity, but an innocent mistake.

 

[cullennz]

I had an experience today which demonstrates how bureaucratic issues can cause problems for transgender young people, even in a fairly tolerant and liberal democracy like Australia.

My job is to work with apprentices and their employers to get the apprenticeship underway. It's a great pre-retirement job and I love it. Anyway I had the task of getting a hairdressing apprenticeship sign-up completed. The employer sent me an email with the apprentice's details, and pointed out that the legal name was Jazzmin, but the preferred name was Daniel, so I guessed that transgenderism was in play.

So Daniel was 18 years old and was likely undergoing HRT as he was growing a decent beard. But then the problems arose. His ID (Drivers Licence) had his female name, so I explained we had to use this until it was legally changed. He, quite rightly, wanted to record his sex as "Male" (the forms we use only have binary sex choices, and no allowance for different genders). But there are previous training records with Jazzmin as female. And I do not want to put file notes on the record, which anyone with access can read, to explain that Daniel is transgender.

I have pushed this up the line to get some advice. Daniel is going to have enough issues to deal with, without some petty bureaucrat questioning him.

We can't discriminate on the basis of gender identity in Australia, but we also don't make it easy.

As an aside, with Daniel's obvious female appearance and voice (despite the beard) decades of conditioning had me on the verge of referring to him as she many times. Sometimes misgendering isn't a callous disregard for someone's identity, but an innocent mistake.

I'm hoping you didn't expect everyone one else outside your company to have to make the same effort.

 

[lionking]

I'm hoping you didn't expect everyone one else outside your company to have to make the same effort.

I have absolutely no idea what this means. But don’t bother trying to explain it as it will not add anything.