Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Lithrael]

Or the women who don’t see a risk proportionate to the response.

The ‘I used to be sympathetic and thought they just wanted a reasonable amount of x but now I see the true-woman-marginalizing terror they represent’ thing gives me a combination ‘I used to be an atheist just like you but then I found god’ and ‘you are just a useful idiot being used by the ruthless bad guys’ vibe.

Some things are being handled wrong and other things merely inappropriately (and we’ll work on improving them) but yet other things are fine and the sky, as far as I can see, is not falling.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm perfectly OK with males being completely forced out of WOMEN'S SPACES. That is my preferred solution. That doesn't mean they're forced out of public life. Sort yourselves out, men. Don't make the solution to your problem the destruction of women's spaces.

Ever since women's suffrage, it's been a bit regressive to expect men to sort out questions of public policy on their own. Moreover, it seems to me that adult female people should have a somewhat larger say in matters affecting them alone, e.g. women's health clinics, Michfest, etc.




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[qayak]

Rolfe,

Take a second to appreciate how weird it is that you're demanding I be on "your side" when your side is "Men are inherently predatory monsters."

You're basically asking me to take part in my own demonization.

Why trust my opinion on a matter if you don't trust me to be alone with you for 30 seconds without going into "Default Male Rape Mode."

You haven't answered Rolfe's very obvious question: Why is your default position not that men's spaces need to be modified to accept a subset of men instead of foisting that subset of men onto women?

 

[angrysoba]

Ever since women's suffrage, it's been a bit regressive to expect men to sort out questions of public policy on their own.

Rolfe can tell me if I am wrong, but I think Rolfe's point is that it should not even be on the negotiating table how much of this issue will involve women making compromises. For her trans women are, to be blunt, men. And for her they are men who are asking women to move over a bit. Rolfe is sayin, "NO! Not one inch."

Moreover, it seems to me that adult female people should have a somewhat larger say in matters affecting them alone, e.g. women's health clinics, Michfest, etc.

Indeed. I think she is saying that too.

 

[qayak]

Rolfe,

Take a second to appreciate how weird it is that you're demanding I be on "your side" when your side is "Men are inherently predatory monsters."

You're basically asking me to take part in my own demonization.

Why trust my opinion on a matter if you don't trust me to be alone with you for 30 seconds without going into "Default Male Rape Mode."

You yourself say that self identifying trans-women should be allowed into women's spaces because they don't feel safe in men's spaces. You agree they have a point but don't agree when someone else has the same point.

You make the mistake in thinking that once a man self identifies as a woman they automatically become non-threatening to women. They don't. Their orientation doesn't change. If as a man they saw women as targets then as trans-women they see women as targets. Many women are tired if being targets.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You haven't answered Rolfe's very obvious question: Why is your default position not that men's spaces need to be modified to accept a subset of men instead of foisting that subset of men onto women?

For the same reason my default position isn't separate white and black bathrooms, not making a special category for "Special non-threatening black people who are allowed into white bathrooms."

And before the "poor widdle scared women" start quoting crime statistics at me, every racists I know has that "Blacks are only X percent of the population commit Y percent of the violent crimes" statistic memorized as well.

Every racist white person thinks their fear of black people justifies their racism. I'm not open to entertaining the same argument just based on gender.

Biological females/women do not have some sort of special kind of super-fear that gives them rights the rest of us don't have.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You yourself say that self identifying trans-women should be allowed into women's spaces because they don't feel safe in men's spaces.

I have not agreed with that. I've talked about it as context, but that's not the same as it being my personal opinion.

 

[d4m10n]

Rolfe can tell me if I am wrong, but I think Rolfe's point is that it should not even be on the negotiating table how much of this issue will involve women making compromises.

It's already on the table, though. Go visit an enclave of progressive woke culture (e.g. Skepticon in Missouri) and try confronting an MtF individual for being in the ladies' loo. See how long you last before being politely but firmly escorted out of the (women-organized) event.

As much as some people want to turn the clock back, these new norms are already upon us, IRL.

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[qayak]

I have not agreed with that. I've talked about it as context, but that's not the same as it being my personal opinion.

If not for that, what does it matter trans-women stick to men's spaces then. Women's spaces were set up for their safety and privacy. If trans-women are perfectly safe around men, why should they be allowed in women's spaces?

 

[JoeMorgue]

If not for that, what does it matter trans-women stick to men's spaces then. Women's spaces were set up for their safety and privacy. If trans-women are perfectly safe around men, why should they be allowed in women's spaces?

I swear to God if one more person uses "Well what does it matter?" in this argument I'm gonna self-identity as someone who is screaming.

None of this matters. Which no "side" gets to default to "It doesn't matter, therefore I should be the one who arbitrarily gets their way."

White only spaces where also set up for their safety and privacy and yes I will keep making that comparison.

 

[qayak]

It's already on the table, though. Go visit an enclave of progressive woke culture (e.g. Skepticon in Missouri) and try confronting an MtF individual for being in the ladies' loo. See how long you last before being politely but firmly escorted out of the (women-organized) event.

As much as some people want to turn the clock back, these new norms are already upon us, IRL.

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I wouldn't call some fringe little event organized by people with their heads up their asses an indicator of "the new norm."

 

[theprestige]

I wouldn't call some fringe little event organized by people with their heads up their asses an indicator of "the new norm."

Goalposts. The claim wasn't that it's the new norm, but that it's on the table for negotiation.

 

[Rolfe]

Rolfe,

Take a second to appreciate how weird it is that you're demanding I be on "your side" when your side is "Men are inherently predatory monsters."

You're basically asking me to take part in my own demonization.

Why trust my opinion on a matter if you don't trust me to be alone with you for 30 seconds without going into "Default Male Rape Mode."

If you interpret the normal social arrangement that males and females should have separate spaces for intimate purposes including hygiene and sleeping as implying that "men are inherently predatory monsters", then I don't really care if you're on "my side".

Women do not like performing intimate procedures or being undressed in the presence of the opposite sex even if the members of the opposite sex are friends who are not suspected in any way of being predatory monsters. I understand from many men that many men feel the same way. This is the first level of modesty and it applies to both sexes.

The second level is that some men are indeed predatory monsters. Women can't tell which these are (unless the men in question are already known and trusted), and so for that reason also they desire a male-free space for hygiene and sleeping purposes.

Time and time again in this thread we have seen men declare that since they personally are not predatory monsters then women should be prepared to accept them and anyone they decide to vouch for into female-only spaces. It doesn't work like that. First there is the basic modesty requirement, and secondly the only way to keep out the men who are predatory monsters is to exclude all of them.

 

[Rolfe]

And since we now seem to be back to "so why is it wrong to segregate bathrooms by skin colour", I'm out. I have better things to do than address this nonsense.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Every racist white person thinks their fear of black people justifies their racism. I'm not open to entertaining the same argument just based on gender.

Do you mean sex or gender?

I think this is a terrible analogy. race is largely a social construct, while sex is not. Females have been oppressed by males in nearly every culture across thousands of years.

Do you think the victims of female infanticide, female genital mutilation or rape could 'identify" as male and thereby escape their fate?

Biological females/women do not have some sort of special kind of super-fear that gives them rights the rest of us don't have.

This sounds like you are against female only spaces of any kind and by extension, sex-based rights of females. Is that the case?

 

[The Atheist]

There is some truth to this. We have seen a very large number of men, including many in this thread, leap on to the trans side of every argument, berating and scolding and bullying women to "be kind" and give in to the trans demands. Absolutely no sympathy or empathy with the women whose hard-won safe spaces are being lost. Only the feelings of the transwomen, that is the males, are valid and must be accommodated.

I think you've overestimated the numbers of men taking that position. There are a couple of very squeaky-wheel posters of that stripe who have probably driven off some of us who are fighting back against what you're describing, and I'm pretty sure we're in the majority.

Another thing to consider is that some of the men you describe may be closet transphobes terrified at the idea of having trans women in their spaces.

It has many of the hallmarks of a men's rights movement. What men want men must have, and the wishes of women are selfish, irrational and indeed hysterical. They're not trying to "make both statements true". They're trying to force the people who espouse statement 2 to behave as if statement 1 was true, even though they know it isn't.

I agree with that entirely.

The line is women's refuges. I'd be keen to know why a man would want other men able to enter women's refuges, merely on the self-claimed status of womanhood. It reeks the same as men who don't believe women's refuges should exist.

 

[theprestige]

men who don't believe women's refuges should exist

a.k.a. transwomen?

 

[qayak]

I swear to God if one more person uses "Well what does it matter?" in this argument I'm gonna self-identity as someone who is screaming.

None of this matters. Which no "side" gets to default to "It doesn't matter, therefore I should be the one who arbitrarily gets their way."

White only spaces where also set up for their safety and privacy and yes I will keep making that comparison.

So, change for the sake of change. Nothing positive from it, outside of feelings, and some big negatives for a traditionally marginalized group.

P.S.- your racial analogy would be more accurate if we were complaining about allowing trans-men into men's spaces. We're not and thus it goes more toward our point than yours.

 

[Louden Wilde]

P.S.- your racial analogy would be more accurate if we were complaining about allowing trans-men into men's spaces. We're not and thus it goes more toward our point than yours.

Right, and there's an obvious reason most men (myself included) don't care whether transmen come into men's spaces.....

 

[Elaedith]

I sometimes wonder whether most transmen who are not medically transitioned (ie. identify as men but have female presentation and anatomy) would want to change/shower with males or prefer to be placed in male prisons.