Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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So much of this is so language dependant I really do wish we had greater visibility on how this whole thing is playing out in languages that don't have different words for gender/sex.

I'm not saying every concept has to be reducible to some mathematical expression, but a concept that can only be expressed because you in a language that has two words that mean the same thing to create a distinction without a difference is not wowing me.
 
No she doesn't. I do not agree that any male-bodied person should have the right to access any female single-sex space. Giving any male-bodied person that right inevitably ends up in the situation where it is impossible to challenge any male-bodied person at all who chooses to access such a space. Any at all.

To be clear, as I've said before, if a transwoman uses one of the less-problematic female spaces such as a public loo, and nobody realises he is a transwoman, I don't have a problem with this. In that situation, what I don't know isn't going to hurt me. But as soon as that becomes a right rather than a privilege accorded to transwomen who really do look and behave like women (not a lot of these around) then we don't have any single-sex spaces any more, because - as we've seen - any man at all is then able to claim that right.

For the more intimate spaces such as women's dormitories, this needs to be a hard-line prohibition. If I discovered in retrospect that I'd been sharing a women's dormitory with a male I'd freak out, and I don't think I'd be the only one taking that position.




The more I have considered this matter the more I realise the dangers of allowing any male access at all to female spaces. Allow one, as of right, and you allow the lot. No.




No. Not as a legal right. Absolutely not.

And don't come the "oh but what about the poor marginalised dysphoric darlings, would you make them pee and sleep in men's spaces?" I don't care. Find another solution for these remarkably indulged and accommodated marginalised (narcissistic, aggressive, demanding) individuals. Leave women's hard-won spaces alone.
Thank you. I apologize for putting words in your mouth.

What I see here is an agreement in principle between you and John, but an irreconcilable difference about whether adequate safeguards are possible. You've become convinced that adequate safeguards are not possible, and put forward your reasoning about why not.

John seems to think that adequate safeguards are possible, but hasn't bothered to propose any, or discuss any potential trade-offs.

I still think John is agreeing more than he thinks.
 
So much of this is so language dependant I really do wish we had greater visibility on how this whole thing is playing out in languages that don't have different words for gender/sex.

I'm not saying every concept has to be reducible to some mathematical expression, but a concept that can only be expressed because you in a language that has two words that mean the same thing to create a distinction without a difference is not wowing me.

I think it's more "good faith" dependent than language dependent. The only time terminology seems to become a problem is when people want to avoid actually having a conversation.

"For clarity, let's agree to use gender for the social construct and sex for the underlying biology."

"No. I'm a biological woman. End of discussion."
 
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So much of this is so language dependant I really do wish we had greater visibility on how this whole thing is playing out in languages that don't have different words for gender/sex.
This got me to thinking: Is there a topical explainer which has been translated across several languages? Turns out, yes.

https://transstudent.org/gender/

[IMGw=600]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210102/ab22520764f6c49f1f31703622a5ac65.jpg[/IMGw]

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
 
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So much of this is so language dependant I really do wish we had greater visibility on how this whole thing is playing out in languages that don't have different words for gender/sex.

You mean like English in the twentieth century?

(I don't know the exact history, although it has been posted here. I know some people started using the two words to mean different things before 2000, but I think there are still plenty of people who use them synonymously today, and there were very few that did not until about 10 years ago.)
 
Thanks for your correction.

And, I think your reasoning is sound.

If I were actually part of a legislative committee trying to draft policy, I might work to try and find some sort of compromise, but I also recognize that compromise is anathema to a lot of the activists, which makes things rather difficult.


Compromise? How do you find a compromise between forcing women to accept men into female single sex spaces, and not doing that?
 
Thank you. I apologize for putting words in your mouth.

What I see here is an agreement in principle between you and John, but an irreconcilable difference about whether adequate safeguards are possible. You've become convinced that adequate safeguards are not possible, and put forward your reasoning about why not.

John seems to think that adequate safeguards are possible, but hasn't bothered to propose any, or discuss any potential trade-offs.

I still think John is agreeing more than he thinks.


John has repeatedly said that he believes transwomen are women and should have the legal right to enter and occupy all women's single sex spaces and provisions. Not seeing much agreement there.
 
How do you find a compromise between forcing women to accept men into female single sex spaces, and not doing that?
One possible compromise would be to wait until a majority of the people who use hitherto single-sex spaces don't really mind sharing those spaces with those for whom they were not originally designated.
 
Compromise? How do you find a compromise between forcing women to accept men into female single sex spaces, and not doing that?

Apparently, you can't.

However, in general, to find compromise, you look for places where most of the people are willing to give a little. On one side, you have Boudicca90, who says transwomen are women in every important way and there can be absolutely no distinction between transwomen and women, and it is demeaning for a transwoman to have to get certified as a transwoman. There's not much room for compromise there.

On the other hand, there are people who say that you are born as either male or female, and any attempt to be treated like the wrong one, no matter what you do, is not just illegal, but a sin against God. There's not much room for compromise there.

So where's the middle ground? Well, there are people who have completed sex change surgery. I think that people who have been through the surgery should be allowed into opposite sex zones. i.e. transsexuals who were born male should use the women's facilities, and similarly for FtoM transsexuals.

Other people might be ok with people who have undergone sufficient hormone therapy that their bodies have been altered. I have insufficient knowledge to know at what point different things start looking differently, but I think a lot of women would be willing to accept chemically altered transwomen in their spaces, although, significantly, not as a right, as you put it. In other words, I think a lot of women would let them in, but the women themselves have the veto power in case someone is pushing the limit on what they'll tolerate. Perhaps that is where something like a "gender recognition certificate" could play a role.

One area of compromise is to do everything possible to ensure that there are private facilities available that could be used by transgenders.

The "hormone level" entrance criteria for sports is a compromise.

A lot of people have pointed out the difference between a bathroom and a locker room, and some women are willing to compromise on that issue. Basically, if someone is dressed as a woman, and appears to be a woman except under very close inspection, a lot of women recognize that such a person might be in public and need to use a toilet, and it might not be wise for such a person to use the men's toilet. As a result, a lot of women are willing to compromise on that one.

So, it is theoretically possible to have a compromise, but trans-activists will complain about anything less than compete and total acceptance as the opposite sex, with all rights and privileges associated with that sex, and hard line trans opponents will say that men are men and women are women and there should be no adjustments for anyone in the middle. That makes it hard to compromise.

For my part, I decided some time ago, when thinking about the issue, that I have my own opinions on what is and isn't reasonable, but the most reasonable thing of all for me to do is to respect the wishes of the people being encroached upon. In the old days, women weren't allowed in the men's room, so, ask they guys if they mind if a transman is allowed. Likewise, ask the women if the biological male is too be allowed. There will be no way to get 100% agreement, but when there is sufficient unanimity to say that a consensus opinion is available, I'll go with that.

Right now, I think that means transwomen ought to be excluded from changing rooms, and barely tolerated in public toilets. At least, that's the sense i get from what I read.
 
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This got me to thinking: Is there a topical explainer which has been translated across several languages? Turns out, yes.

https://transstudent.org/gender/

[IMGw=600]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210102/ab22520764f6c49f1f31703622a5ac65.jpg[/IMGw]

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

Of course there is. Terminology isn't the problem. Terminology across different languages and cultures isn't the problem. Boudicca isn't dissenting because she's not familiar with English or because she's using different terms.

She's dissenting from any attempt to make any distinction at all, other than the distinction she herself makes in her head. This disinction is proprietary to her. It is not available for examination. It is not open to discussion. It is absolutely not to be used as any sort of basis for determining in what contexts transwomen should be considered women, and in what contexts they should be considered male.

That's not a problem that can be solved by terminology. In fact, I'm pretty sure that from Boudicca's and AGG's and LJ's point of view, the ambiguity and equivocation is a terminology solution.
 
John has repeatedly said that he believes transwomen are women and should have the legal right to enter and occupy all women's single sex spaces and provisions. Not seeing much agreement there.

In the recent post I took as agreement on one point, he acknowledged that it shouldn't mean all males, and there should be some safeguards.

I get that you no longer believe that such safeguards are possible, but I think in principle there's still an agreement there. As long as you're both being sincere.
 
So much of this is so language dependant I really do wish we had greater visibility on how this whole thing is playing out in languages that don't have different words for gender/sex.

I'm not saying every concept has to be reducible to some mathematical expression, but a concept that can only be expressed because you in a language that has two words that mean the same thing to create a distinction without a difference is not wowing me.

No, there is no Sapier-Whorf explanation here, given that Sapier-Whorf theories on almost everything have been almost universally debunked.
 
That's not a problem that can be solved by terminology. In fact, I'm pretty sure that from Boudicca's and AGG's and LJ's point of view, the ambiguity and equivocation is a terminology solution.
In any other thread I'd say this is way too cynical and lacking in principle of charityWP.

In this thread, well . . . :cool:
 
In any other thread I'd say this is way too cynical and lacking in principle of charityWP.

In this thread, well . . . : cool :

It's probably worth noting that a lot of subreddit communities have casually adopted the "male/female" terminology without any complaints or confusion. For example:

https: //www.reddit.com/r/AmIthe[Butt]hole/

[URL bowdlerized to appease the autocensor]

People describe themselves and others as "30m" or "19f" or "27mtf" or "32nb" or whatever, and nobody bats an eye. Nobody's confused about who's doing what or which roles and experiences to apply to the story being told. Everyone just gets on with it.
 
That's cool and all, but...

Google's great for finding the long tail of things. I'm talking about actual communities of people and how they behave day in and day out.

It's neat* that Vox.com has an infographic showing that trans people who identify as men are male, but that doesn't seem to be how the communities I'm referring to actually use the term.

---
*Stupid and lame, actually.
 
It's probably worth noting that a lot of subreddit communities have casually adopted the "male/female" terminology without any complaints or confusion. For example:

https: //www.reddit.com/r/AmIthe[Butt]hole/

[URL bowdlerized to appease the autocensor]

People describe themselves and others as "30m" or "19f" or "27mtf" or "32nb" or whatever, and nobody bats an eye. Nobody's confused about who's doing what or which roles and experiences to apply to the story being told. Everyone just gets on with it.

In some places the goal is to communicate accurately. In other places, as you mentioned earlier, the ambiguity is part of the solution.
 
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