Cont: Brexit: Now What? The Perfect 10.

[Andy_Ross]

How is that evidence that
"Nice and Lisbon treaties were all ratified against the public's wishes"?

 

[Airfix]

Also noteworthy is the fact that there was never an EU election or an EEC election with a turnout above 40% in the UK, despite the adoption of Proportional Representation from the 1999 elections onwards.

 

[Airfix]

How is that evidence that
"Nice and Lisbon treaties were all ratified against the public's wishes"?

There was no referendum on those treaties and the party which signed them enjoyed plummeting support in EU elections and after signing the Lisbon treaty despite a very public campaign by David Cameron to hold a referendum on it, Labour were booted out.

Think about it.
The EU is a key area in which Labour lost support and seats in the General Elections of 2010 and 2015.
The Tories gained a majority in 2015 with a promise to hold a membership referendum.
Labour regained seats in 2017 with a promise to honour it.
Labour lost seats in 2019 after reneging on that promise.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Because the country has been fed a solid diet of lies about the EU since the 80s.

Which you seem to have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Sir David Amess MP tweeted

@amessd_southend
Whilst Margaret didn’t live long enough to see this day, I am sure that she is rejoicing in heaven.
At last we ‘got Brexit done’!


(Sir David the MP for Southend West has his twitter account set so that readers cannot reply to any of his posts)

 

[Andy_Ross]

I am sure Mags would be delighted to see all her work getting the UK a privileged place in the EU torn up and flushed down the toilet for short term personal gain by a corrupt PM.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Sir David Amess MP tweeted

@amessd_southend
Whilst Margaret didn’t live long enough to see this day, I am sure that she is rejoicing in heaven.
At last we ‘got Brexit done’!


(Sir David the MP for Southend West has his twitter account set so that readers cannot reply to any of his posts)

If Maggie is in heaven she's probably busy trying to clean all the piss off her grave

 

[Airfix]

Because the country has been fed a solid diet of lies about the EU since the 80s.

Which you seem to have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

The EU didn't exist in the 1980's the EEC and then EC did.
I suggest you yourself, examine what you've been told.

The EU didn't come into existence until the Maastricht Treaty, and the public were never given a vote on that treaty.

Whatever your perception, you don't know me.

I have watched Parliamentary debates since 1990.
I watched the Maastricht rebellion take place on my screen in the 1990's and due to the intransigence of John Major, and then Tony Blair after him, became quite distrustful.

I didn't become a Euroskeptic because of the tabloids.
I became a Euroskeptic because of the Parliamentary debates and fascinating speakers like Tony Benn.

Three points about the debate have interested me. First, there is fundamental agreement among the three party leaders. The Prime Minister is on the eve of negotiations so he has to be cautious. The Leader of the Opposition, who hopes to take over, can be bolder. The Liberal Democrats, who are far from office, can be quite clear about their objective. There is no disagreement about the idea, that we should move from the original membership of the community through the Single European Act to something stronger.

Secondly, a degree of caution has emerged from people who, when they discussed the matter 20 years ago, were far more uncritical. Thirdly—I say this with some satisfaction —21 years after I urged a referendum, I have won the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) and the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) to my cause. I had to wait 21 years, but it has been worth waiting for some recognition of the fact that the people have a right to a say in their Government.

I do not want to go over old ground, because this is not a question of yes or no to the status quo; we are looking to the future. Some people genuinely believe that we shall never get social justice from the British Government, but we shall get it from Jacques Delors. They believe that a good king is better than a bad Parliament. I have never taken that view. Others believe that the change is inevitable, and that the common currency will protect us from inflation and will provide a wage policy. They believe that it will control speculation and that Britain cannot survive alone. None of those arguments persuade me because the argument has never been about sovereignty.

I do not know what a sovereign is, apart from the one that used to be in gold and the Pope who is a sovereign in the Vatican. We are talking about democracy. No nation —not even the great United States which could, for all I know, be destroyed by a nuclear weapon from a third-world country—has the power to impose its will on other countries. We are discussing whether the British people are to be allowed to elect those who make the laws under the which they are governed. The argument is nothing to do with whether we should get more maternity leave from Madame Papandreou than from Madame Thatcher. That is not the issue.

I recognise that, when the members of the three Front Benches agree, I am in a minority. My next job therefore is to explain to the people of Chesterfield what we have decided. I will say first, "My dear constituents, in future you will be governed by people whom you do not elect and cannot remove. I am sorry about it. They may give you better creches and shorter working hours but you cannot remove them."

I know that it sounds negative but I have always thought it positive to say that the important thing about democracy is that we can remove without bloodshed the people who govern us. We can get rid of a Callaghan, a Wilson or even a right hon. Lady by internal processes. We can get rid of the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major). But that cannot be done in the structure that is proposed. Even if one likes the policies of the people in Europe, one cannot get rid of them.

Secondly, we say to my favourite friends, the Chartists and suffragettes, "All your struggles to get control of the ballot box were a waste of time. We shall be run in future by a few white persons, as in 1832." The instrument, I might add, is the Royal Prerogative of treaty making. For the first time since 1649 the Crown makes the laws—advised, I admit, by the Prime Minister.

We must ask what will happen when people realise what we have done. We have had a marvellous debate about Europe, but none of us has discussed our relationship with the people who sent us here. Hon. Members have expressed views on Albania and the Baltic states. I have been dazzled by the knowledge of the continent of which we are all part. No one has spoken about how he or she got here and what we were sent here to do.

If people lose the power to sack their Government, one of several things happens. First, people may just slope off. Apathy could destroy democracy. When the turnout drops below 50 per cent., we are in danger.

......................................

I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) is a democratic federalist, as is my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes). They want an American-type constitution for Europe. It could be that our laws would hang on which way the Albanian members voted. I could not complain about that, because that is democracy, but it is unworkable. It is like trying to get an elephant to dance through a minefield, but it would be democratic.

Another way would be to have a looser, wider Europe. I have an idea for a Commonwealth of Europe. I am introducing a Bill on the subject. Europe would be rather like the British Commonwealth. We would work by consent with people. Or we could accept this ghastly proposal, which is clumsy, secretive, centralised, bureaucratic and divisive. That is how I regard the treaty of Rome. I was born a European and I will die one, but I have never put my alliance behind the treaty of Rome. I object to it. I hate being called an anti-European. How can one be anti-European when one is born in Europe? It is like saying that one is anti-British if one does not agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. What a lot of nonsense it is.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...uropeanCommunity(IntergovernmentalConferences)

He was a massive inspiration to my teenage self.

I did not become a Euroskeptic because of tabloid lies.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Tony Benn...



He was a massive inspiration to my teenage self.

That explains a lot.

 

[Airfix]

Thank you.

Anyway, have a happy new year.

We're all in this together whether you like it or not and we have to make the best of the situation.

Stay safe, I wish you and your family all the best for 2021.

 

[rjh01]

Just passing.
Obsolete software from 1990s features in Brexit deal text

Example

“s/MIME functionality is built into the vast majority of modern e-mail software packages including Outlook, Mozilla Mail as well as Netscape Communicator 4.x and inter-operates among all major e-mail software packages.”

Is both in the agreement (see the link above) and here
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eudn/2008/616/annex/chapter/1/division/5/division/5.4/adopted

You read this here first.

 

[Arcade22]

And what relevance has a member of this council at EU level when they've lost the relevant EU election coming second or even worse, third?

None.

The EU Council sets the general priorities and any legislative agenda for the EU Commission. Whether or not the person representing a member state in the EU Council also is the "winner" of elections to the EU parliament is completely irrelevant as they are separate bodies with different responsibilities and function. And it's the EU Council that has the power to tell the EU Commission to back off from legislation that encourages privatisation or whatever, not parliament.

The heads of government or state that sit on the EU Council are the primary representatives of their member state in the EU simply by virtue of being the political leaders of them. As such they have far more relevance than than any or even all the MEPs.

 

[RolandRat]

Sir David Amess MP tweeted

@amessd_southend
Whilst Margaret didn’t live long enough to see this day, I am sure that she is rejoicing in heaven.
At last we ‘got Brexit done’!


(Sir David the MP for Southend West has his twitter account set so that readers cannot reply to any of his posts)

I've actually met this guy and his thug of a son. He is a slimy weasel, utterly repellent.

 

[Airfix]

Arcade 22, when the member of the EU Council has come 2nd or third in an EU election, their mandate at the EU is in question. Pressing on with unwanted policies for ideological reasons is not democratic.
John Major, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown all failed to offer referendums on treaty changes.

John Major presided over Black Wednesday.
Crucially, the Black Wednesday crash occurred during the peak of the Maastricht rebellion.
John Major had Norman Lamont spend billions trying to keep the pound in the exchange rate mechanism. It destroyed trust.

In 1994 he was resolutely defeated in the first EU era parliament elections. His mandate to represent us at the EU was gone. In 1999 Blair's mandate went as well.

Instead of addressing the democratic deficit, the Europhile ideologues pressed on rather than recognising the need for public involvement.

If they had called referendums on the treaties, the membership referendum wouldn't have happened, and you would be a lot happier.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Also noteworthy is the fact that there was never an EU election or an EEC election with a turnout above 40% in the UK, despite the adoption of Proportional Representation from the 1999 elections onwards.

Since the European parliament was a boring non-issue and those who could be bothered used it as a way to give the government a kicking without affecting seats in Westminster.

 

[Airfix]

The European Parliament has the powers to vote down Commission policy.
It voted down the attempt at legalising software patents in the mid 2000's. Largely symbolic as the European Patent Office is not an institution of the EU, and outside of it's authority legalised it anyway, but I digress.

The Parliament is a good thing, but it (and I'm saying this as a Brexiteer), needs more teeth.

It needs not only to be a policy scrutinising body, but a policy writing body that proposes policies of it's own volition.

Turnout in British EU elections never rose above 40%, probably because a lot of people saw the Parliament as a waste of time, a toothless tiger, something ineffective at bringing the required changes.

 

[lomiller]

Turnout in British EU elections never rose above 40%

This undermines your assertion's that the EU was doing things against public wishes in the UK. If the public couldn't even be motivated to vote than clearly there could not have been much in the way of popular opposition to the measures in question.

 

[Airfix]

This undermines your assertion's that the EU was doing things against public wishes in the UK. If the public couldn't even be motivated to vote than clearly there could not have been much in the way of popular opposition to the measures in question.

Vote for what ? An organisation they saw as being completely useless, out of touch and completely ignorant of their needs or wishes ?

You might have been happy with the situation, but loads of us weren't.

 

[GlennB]

Vote for what ? An organisation they saw as being completely useless, out of touch and completely ignorant of their needs or wishes ?

You might have been happy with the situation, but loads of us weren't.

Do you feel that this government is in touch and will in any way serve your needs and wishes? What I see are a bunch of corrupt, incompetent chancers who are solely interested in clinging on to power while lining their own pockets and those of their chums.

Time will tell, of course. The first signs might be reducing employment rights, flogging NHS services to the private sector, allowing the import of US chlorine-washed chicken etc etc.

Keep your eyes peeled. If the likes of me sees signs of an improved UK I'll be the first to admit it. Will you, if things go downhill?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Vote for what ? An organisation they saw as being completely useless, out of touch and completely ignorant of their needs or wishes ?

You might have been happy with the situation, but loads of us weren't.

The European parliament was something only very politically engaged people gave more than a moment's thought to. The media loved their "Barmy Brussels" stories but MEPs were never a feature of those and nor was European politics. It was just "look what those crazy Eurocrats have done now" bollocks for Daily Mail readers to enjoy being fleetingly angry about before moving on to the next thing to be angry about.

Euro election results in the UK were just a reflection of UK domestic politics because that's all the political stuff people here read about if they followed politics at all.