Cont: Brexit: Now What? The Perfect 10.

[Arcade22]

Incorrect. The only institution of the EU that is able to propose policy in the European parliament is the Commission. The public cannot lobby their MEP to propose legislation, only to amend reject or approve legislation.

The Commission aren't elected by the public, if they were I'd be a supporter, but they aren't.

And who exactly controls the Commission? The European Council, which is made up by the collective heads of the member states. They are the ones who decide whether to tighten or loosen the Commissions leash.

The EU is not supposed to work the same way as a democratic state. It is first and foremost a union of independent states, and not a union of individual citizens, in effect making it a confederation where a politically neutral and autonomous government (The EU Commission) is needed in order to prevent member states from politicizing the bureaucracy and dominating smaller members. The fact that it lacks "democratic legitimacy" is not a flaw rather it's blessing in much the same way it's a blessing that judges are not elected politicians.

In the end it's not the EU's fault that your elected politicians haven't been advocating the policies you support.

 

[RolandRat]

The DAILY MAIL is superb at 'developing news' with some fantastic photography. Politically it is urgh!

The Daily Mail is dreadful. At everything.

 

[catsmate]

Which of these is more rampant in your view?

Anti-Semitism in the Labour Party
Islamophobia in the Tory Party

Perhaps you should include
Anti-Semitism in the Conservative Party
Islamophobia in the Labour Party
for the full gamut?

The only reason anti-Semitism in the Labour Party became an issue is because the media made it one and gives the Tories a free ride on their bigotry.

Bollocks.
The Labour party lurched further into embracing anti-Semitism under Corbyn (though the problem already existed). It was not merely a media construction, as demonstrated by the atrocious behaviour of party staffers shown in the recent investigations.

 

[catsmate]

The Daily Mail is dreadful. At everything.

It's usefully absorbent for dealing with spillages, but their cheap ink tends to stain surfaces.

 

[dudalb]

There's The i, the Guardian, the Independent (now online only), regional newspapers, the Financial Times.

There is a lot of tabloid nonsense though. Daily Mail is one of the worst.

I dearly wish papers were required, as the BBC is, to be impartial.

They shouldn't tell people how to vote, they should only be able to report the policies.

SO much for freedom of speech.
A cure worse then the disease.
And, I hate to say it, but you think the Guardian is not as heavily slanted to the left as other papers are to the right. It's more sophisticated, yes, but I would not trust the Guardian any more then I would the Daily Mail.

 

[dudalb]

We've had this "debate" with both resident Brexiteers before; they continue to spout debunked lies about the "democratic deficit" that supposedly exists in the EU but refuse to address the problems in the UK system or the endemic racism, xenophobia and delusions of the Brexiteers.

I really like the Britex supporter here who says he supported leave because it would make it easier for the UK to go pretty far to the left and become a pure "Socialist" country Instead of a LIberal Socislist one.. Did not work out that way, did it?
I understand this may have been why Corbyn was so cryptic on the vote.
You gotta love ideologues.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Perhaps you should include
Anti-Semitism in the Conservative Party
Islamophobia in the Labour Party
for the full gamut?

I note you didn't answer

Bollocks.
The Labour party lurched further into embracing anti-Semitism under Corbyn (though the problem already existed). It was not merely a media construction, as demonstrated by the atrocious behaviour of party staffers shown in the recent investigations.

The media coverage was by definition a media construction. And the fact that they DIDN'T report on the Tory bigotry in the same way shows that it was a choice.

Partly it's an issue with the relative mindsets on the two sides. Left-leaning commentators and voters tend to see bigotry as a reason NOT to vote for a candidate and will be quick to castigate them when they see it while right-leaning voters and commentators tend to either deny it or see it as a positive.

Corbyn's 'anti-semitism' is right up there with Hilary's e-mails as **** reasons to vote for a right-wing incompetent to run the country.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

And, I hate to say it, but you think the Guardian is not as heavily slanted to the left as other papers are to the right. It's more sophisticated, yes, but I would not trust the Guardian any more then I would the Daily Mail.

Have you read both papers in question because if you have I can't see how a normal functioning adult could reach that conclusion.

 

[dudalb]

Have you read both papers in question because if you have I can't see how a normal functioning adult could reach that conclusion.

I have read both papers, and maintain the Guardian biases it news toward the left.
Granted, it does it in a much more soophisticated way, and is nowhere as blatent about it as the Daily Fail, but the bias is still there.

 

[Darat]

I really like the Britex supporter here who says he supported leave because it would make it easier for the UK to go pretty far to the left and become a pure "Socialist" country Instead of a LIberal Socislist one.. Did not work out that way, did it?I understand this may have been why Corbyn was so cryptic on the vote.
You gotta love ideologues.

This person never existed outside your imagination.

 

[Airfix]

And what relevance has a member of this council at EU level when they've lost the relevant EU election coming second or even worse, third?

None.

This situation could have been averted by John Major if only he'd recognised the seriousness of the Maastricht rebellion and held a referendum on ratification of the treaty.

It began in the 1990's and snowballed. The Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon treaties were all ratified against the public's wishes and that put us on course for departure.

 

[Airfix]

The Daily Mail is dreadful. At everything.

Damn right.

 

[Andy_Ross]

And what relevance has a member of this council at EU level when they've lost the relevant EU election coming second or even worse, third?

None.

This situation could have been averted by John Major if only he'd recognised the seriousness of the Maastricht rebellion and held a referendum on ratification of the treaty.

It began in the 1990's and snowballed. The Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon treaties were all ratified against the public's wishes and that put us on course for departure.

What is your evidence for this?

 

[catsmate]

I really like the Britex supporter here who says he supported leave because it would make it easier for the UK to go pretty far to the left and become a pure "Socialist" country Instead of a LIberal Socislist one.. Did not work out that way, did it?
I understand this may have been why Corbyn was so cryptic on the vote.
You gotta love ideologues.

There has always been a faction within the Labour party in the UK that was suspicious of the CM/EEC/EC/EU. considering it a "capitalist plot" that would prevent the otherwise inevitable socialist/communist transformation of the UK. The Corbynistas were of this ilk, though (somewhat ironically) their supporters in the TUC were (and are) vehemently pro-EU.

The reality is that the EU has been immensely beneficial for the UK, driving economic growth and forcing the country to improve human rights. Though of course the Britons opposed to having to cooperate with "a lot of frogs and huns" are still there and prominent within the Brexiteers.

It's notable that our resident Brexiteers frequently whine about "loss of sovereignty" when this was known about even before the UK joined (i.e. FCO 30/1048 of 1970-72) which stated that certain areas of policy would have reduced parliamentary freedom to legislate, these included:
customs duties
agriculture policy
free movement of labour, services and capital
transport
social security for migrant workers

 

[catsmate]

I note you didn't answer

Because I do not intend to pander to your attempt to alter the discussion.

The media coverage was by definition a media construction.

Oh good grief. Are you really denying the reality of anti-Semitism within the UK Labour party?

 

[dudalb]

There has always been a faction within the Labour party in the UK that was suspicious of the CM/EEC/EC/EU. considering it a "capitalist plot" that would prevent the otherwise inevitable socialist/communist transformation of the UK. The Corbynistas were of this ilk, though (somewhat ironically) their supporters in the TUC were (and are) vehemently pro-EU.

The reality is that the EU has been immensely beneficial for the UK, driving economic growth and forcing the country to improve human rights. Though of course the Britons opposed to having to cooperate with "a lot of frogs and huns" are still there and prominent within the Brexiteers.

It's notable that our resident Brexiteers frequently whine about "loss of sovereignty" when this was known about even before the UK joined (i.e. FCO 30/1048 of 1970-72) which stated that certain areas of policy would have reduced parliamentary freedom to legislate, these included:
customs duties
agriculture policy
free movement of labour, services and capital
transport
social security for migrant workers

Brexit proves that the old "The Wogs Begin At Calais" atitude is still popular in the UK.

 

[dudalb]

Because I do not intend to pander to your attempt to alter the discussion.


Oh good grief. Are you really denying the reality of anti-Semitism within the UK Labour party?

But Labor is pure and can do no wrong.......

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Because I do not intend to pander to your attempt to alter the discussion.

The discussion was about what?

1. Whether people didn't vote Labour because of anti-semitism?
2. Whether the media exaggerated the anti-semitism?
3. Whether the anti-semitism led to Labour losing the election?

Whichever you choose it's a bust.

1. And yet they voted for Brexit because they hate brown people and foreigners. Can't see it.
2. Seems pretty clear that they did given that they barely managed a story about the rampant Islamophobia in the Tories. they jumped on something they thought would smear Corbyn.
3. Labour always lose elections. Because England is Tory. This is something that puzzles me often. People seem to blame the leader for Labour losing elections rather than the fact that England is a pretty right-wing place where Labour pretty much never wins. I don't see that anti-semitism was the cause of losing the election anymore than any other right wing smear. You could pick any other policy and say the same.

Oh good grief. Are you really denying the reality of anti-Semitism within the UK Labour party?

To the extent that it was portrayed in the media? Absolutely. I don't believe for a second that Corbyn is an anti-Semite. Even if you think his views on Israel are extreme I don't think they are connected to them being Jewish. If Israel was Christian I think he would have pretty much the same view on their actions.

And I think pretty much everyone who really claims he is anti-semitic thinks that being anti-israel is being anti-jew.

That's not to say that there isn't real anti-semitism within the party...but the line between anti-semite and criticising israel has been destroyed recently.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

But Labor is pure and can do no wrong.......

It's weird you say that because I think Labour are an abortion of a party but i can also see that the media went after Corbyn and demonised him from the off.

He isn't my choice for PM. Far from it. But I don't believe he hates Jews. And when I look at the opposition and see that Labour is the party being branded bigoted I start to think that there is an agenda there.

I can smell this *****. BLM are racist marxist terrorists. Labour are anti-semite communists. the SNP are anti-english racists. Bernie is a Commie.

A quick sniff test is all that is needed to make you think twice

 

[Airfix]

What is your evidence for this?

The election results.

UK EU elections 1994
Turnout 36%
Winner Labour 6,753,881 votes 62 seats
Conservatives 4,274,122 votes 18 seats
Lib Dems 2,557,887 2 seats.

Santer Commission began 1995.
Commissioners appointed, Leon Brittan, Neil Kinnock.
Neil Kinnock, erm ok? BUT Leon Brittan's party had lost.

UK EU elections 1999
Turnout 24.0%
Winner Conservatives 3,578,218 votes 36 seats
Labour 2,803,821 votes 29 seats.
Lib Dems 3rd place
UKIP 4th place.
Prodi Commission
Commissioners appointed, Neil Kinnock, Chris Patten.

UK EU elections 2004
Turnout 38.5%
Winner Conservatives 4,397,087 votes 27 seats.
Labour 2nd place 3,718,683 votes 25 seats.
UKIP 3rd place 2,650,768 votes 10 seats.

Barosso Commission era.
Commissioners appointed, Peter Mandelson, he left this job to serve in the cabinet after being made a member of the Lords by Gordon Brown.
Replaced by Baroness Catherine Ashton.

UK EU elections 2009.
Winner Conservatives 4,281,286 votes 26 seats.
UKIP 2nd place 2,498,226 votes 13 seats.
Labour 3rd 2,381,760 votes 13 seats.

Barosso Commission II.
Commissioner: Catherine Ashton despite her party coming third and losing the General Election of 2010.

UK EU elections 2014.
Winner UKIP.
Conservatives third.

Juncker Commission era.
Commissioner, Lord Jonathan Hill of Oareford, resigned 24th June 2016. Replaced by Julian King (a diplomat).

Source, Wikipedia.