Cont: Brexit: Now What? The Perfect 10.

[Pixel42]

It is this deal or no deal.

The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations.

Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal.

Four and a half years, just days to go to crashing out without a deal, and you think negotiations were sped up? What would negotiations which were being slowed down by the incompetence and intransigence of a bunch of clueless English public schoolboys have looked like?

 

[Wudang]

Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn (what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???).

Same reason most of the Labour voters I know* didn't support him and I (as a Labour member) voted for Starmer. He was unelectable and yes, the media did a really unfair hatchet job on him, but he was never a leader. I know canvassers for Labour who were on peoples doorsteps trying to explain WTF "constructive ambiguity" meant to people who "expect a little more back for their taxes like school books, beds in hospitals and peace in our bloody time All they get is old men grinding axes".



*skewed sample. Most of us are of an age to remember when Labour was run by people who preferred ideological purity to actually helping people.

 

[catsmate]

Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn.

Because Corbyn was, and is, an unelectable, imbecile, Brexiteer, redolent with the stench of lunatic anti-semitism, who cannot pass an inane, ideological bandwagon without jumping on-board.

what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???

Because without Corbyn's idiocy Johnson wouldn't have been elected with an unassailable majority and imposed his insane Brexit on the UK.

 

[Airfix]

FTA negotiations didn't start until February.
The previous negotiations were on the withdrawal agreement and what a mess Theresa May made of that period.
And Jeremy Corbyn and Keir Starmer.

 

[catsmate]

It is this deal or no deal.

The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations.

Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal.

Rubbish. The UK had better deals on offer. They rejected them as they were insufficiently appealing to the 'Brexit base', the racist, xenophobic, out-of-touch-with-reality Little Englanders and their imperial delusions.

 

[dudalb]

When I visited the UK for the first time, I was horrified at the daily press. Almost no general prupose newspapers ("London TImes" is the only one I saw) the rest tabloid nonsense.

 

[dudalb]

SO maybe pretty much alllowing the Party Bosses to decide all the major Government offices is not such a great idea? Maybe the avergae voter should have more input?

 

[Airfix]

When I visited the UK for the first time, I was horrified at the daily press. Almost no general prupose newspapers ("London TImes" is the only one I saw) the rest tabloid nonsense.

There's The i, the Guardian, the Independent (now online only), regional newspapers, the Financial Times.

There is a lot of tabloid nonsense though. Daily Mail is one of the worst.

I dearly wish papers were required, as the BBC is, to be impartial.

They shouldn't tell people how to vote, they should only be able to report the policies.

 

[Airfix]

Rubbish. The UK had better deals on offer. They rejected them as they were insufficiently appealing to the 'Brexit base', the racist, xenophobic, out-of-touch-with-reality Little Englanders and their imperial delusions.

The idea that 17.41 million people are racist little Englanders, is delusional rubbish.

Meanwhile, this is the proposed deal:

Have a read, and judge it by it's content, rather than prejudice.

I haven't read it yet.

I will not judge it until I have.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The idea that 17.41 million people are racist little Englanders, is delusional rubbish.

Evidence and experience tells me otherwise.

Far more than 17 million to be honest.

 

[Airfix]

I didn't vote leave because of foreigners, I voted leave because of democracy and experience tells me that the only way to have democratic freedom of choice in policy areas controlled by the EU, is to not be in it.

Take the railways, I would like to bring back a wholly state owned passenger railway system.

But the fourth railways package requires a market for railway services.

Agriculture, members of the EU have no alternative agricultural policy than the CAP, which has proved tremendously difficult to reform.

If David Cameron had been able to achieve a treaty change for the reforms he'd sought, I'd have been more likely to vote remain, but he failed and acted like he'd succeeded, and staked his reputation and his career on a campaign for remain, which he lost.

The campaign would probably have done better without his support.
And some of the 17.4 million, voted leave, so he would resign.
That's not a racist position to take.

Ok, it's not a very good reason to vote leave, but some did.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Funny how the railway systems in Europe are far more efficient and run better services cheaper than those in the UK.
You think they will improve?
You think that agriculture will be better now we are out of the EU? farmers disagree.

What 'democratic freedom' have you gained now we have left the EU?

 

[Airfix]

And EU policy has been to change the continent's railways and create a single market for railway services.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/rail/packages/2013_en

The privatisation drive on the continent has not gone without hitches.
https://www.france24.com/en/20191227-france-s-transport-strike-now-longest-in-three-decades

https://www.dw.com/en/german-rail-strikes-cause-widespread-delays/a-46648618

We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement, we gained, but seem to have largely given away in the new FTA, powers over state aid.
We've gained an independent trade policy.
Fishermen have a better share of the quota than before.

It's not all bad news.

 

[Arcade22]

We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement

You gloss over the fact that the UK was one of the most influential and powerful members in the EU and thus shaped said regulations themselves. The British people really have only themselves to blame if their democratically elected representatives didn't defend their interests enough.

 

[Andy_Ross]

And EU policy has been to change the continent's railways and create a single market for railway services.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/rail/packages/2013_en

The privatisation drive on the continent has not gone without hitches.
https://www.france24.com/en/20191227-france-s-transport-strike-now-longest-in-three-decades

https://www.dw.com/en/german-rail-strikes-cause-widespread-delays/a-46648618

We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement, we gained, but seem to have largely given away in the new FTA, powers over state aid.
We've gained an independent trade policy.
Fishermen have a better share of the quota than before.

It's not all bad news.

hahah you are funny. we haven't gained anything. We never lost any of those 'powers'

You seem to have fallen for the lies.

 

[angrysoba]

For AngrySoba who claimed I wasn't aware of the GUARDIAN and patronisingly gave me a list of articles to read:

It was you who claimed that you hadn't read (and couldn't read!) criticism of the Brexit deal in the UK press. Why are you trying to have it both ways claiming that:

1.) there is no criticism of it in the British press
AND
2.) you read the Guardian criticism of it.

All you have to do is qualify what you said earlier instead of changing the subject to Corbyn.

It is from reading lesser read quality papers that one becomes aware of the lack of transparency, honesty, decent investigative journalism in the tabloids, and now extending to the TELEGRAPH recently. If you wish to believe the news you read in the tabloids are authentic and not carefully crafted manipulative propaganda, that is your prerogative. The discerning know better.

I don't read the tabloids.

 

[Pixel42]

Apparently we have Rory Bremnar to thank for this not happening many years earlier.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55477424

Honestly, who'd have thought that without a spoof phone call, a group of Eurosceptic backbenchers might have forced the prime minister to resign and taken us out of the EU. What are the chances of that?

 

[Airfix]

hahah you are funny. we haven't gained anything. We never lost any of those 'powers'

You seem to have fallen for the lies.

Incorrect. The only institution of the EU that is able to propose policy in the European parliament is the Commission. The public cannot lobby their MEP to propose legislation, only to amend reject or approve legislation.

The Commission aren't elected by the public, if they were I'd be a supporter, but they aren't.

If that's enough for you, that's fine. But it's not good enough for me.
And "the lies" I read, are the statements on the EU Commission website ec.europa.eu

 

[Airfix]

If you want to know something that really is funny, according to the BBC page 921 of the proposed UK EU FTA contains references to Netscape from an earlier 2008 EU law and 1024 bit RSA encryption, just copied and pasted and not checked by either side.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/technology-55475433

 

[wobs]

Incorrect. The only institution of the EU that is able to propose policy in the European parliament is the Commission. The public cannot lobby their MEP to propose legislation, only to amend reject or approve legislation.

The Commission aren't elected by the public, if they were I'd be a supporter, but they aren't.

If that's enough for you, that's fine. But it's not good enough for me.
And "the lies" I read, are the statements on the EU Commission website ec.europa.eu

The EU is no less democratic than the UK. There are deficiences in both systems. The EU makes new laws by:

Who really makes laws?

EU laws are agreed by two institutions: the council of ministers, comprising ministers from 28 EU governments and the European parliament. The European council, EU leaders meeting for regular late-night summits, plays an increasingly important role in setting the agenda.

(27 EU governments now obviously).
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/13/is-the-eu-undemocratic-referendum-reality-check
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-democracy/
https://theconversation.com/how-democratic-is-the-european-union-59419