Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[angrysoba]

"I'm a woman if I remove literally all defining characteristics beyond self identifying" is meaningless. It's not right or wrong. It's noise. It's nothing.

It's just the nuclear option.

In some ways, it is a deepity. It has the superficial air of profundity, but it's like going searching for the Holy Grail only to say that your coffee mug is the Holy Grail...if you want it to be!

Great! But you have gained exactly nothing by doing it!

 

[Darat]

Jesus Goddamn Christ we get it. You're going to get to be the "I told you so" guy. We know. "History will judge us! *Points Fingers* You've said it enough. We get the point. That's a threat, not an argument. And it's assuming that social justice campaigns are inherently always correct. This could be Prohibition as well as it could be Gay Rights.

We're not throwing tomatoes at the little black girl going to white school. We're asking questions so we can get to a solution that more than just one side is happy with. History can judge us for that. We'll live.

Society in countries like the UK have been happily dealing with the issues in a way that seems acceptable to most. Most of the time a trans person can live the life as whatever gender they want, very occasionally they can't for example medically they will still be determined to be either biologically female or male and it looks like some entertainment will still be able to discriminate based on gender and/or sex if they want i.e. sports and acting come to mind - other areas not so - for example a musician in an orchestra.

You are still seeing the "two sides" being represented by the extremists on each side, they are never going to be happy unless they get everything they want and then they'll still want more. You are wasting your time if you think there can be a way to make both of them happy, you can't.

And Upchurch is right - kids today are growing up with quite different views and attitudes about gender/sex issues than what most of us grow up with. It really isn't that big of a deal for most of them.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again it's like this.

"I'm Right Handed!"
"But you write, shoot, open doors, pitch, catch, and manipulate objects with your Left Hand."
"Yes but I identify as Right Handed."

You're not wrong since "identity" is completely internal but you've made a totally, across the board meaningless statement.

That's why the comparison to Civil Rights and Gay Rights don't 100% work. I know the difference between black people and white people and between gay people and straight people.

 

[theprestige]

Maybe she doesn't, and frankly nobody has to care.

Which is very different from that it doesn't matter if some people do care.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Some variation of "It is vitally important that you acknowledge this, but don't you dare act like its any of your business" is a place a lot of arguments seem to want to go to for some reason.

If your gender identity is none of my business, it's also none of my concern. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Darat]

Again it's like this.

"I'm Right Handed!"
"But you write, shoot, open doors, pitch, catch, and manipulate objects with your Left Hand."
"Yes but I identify as Right Handed."

You're not wrong since "identity" is completely internal but you've made a totally, across the board meaningless statement.

That's why the comparison to Civil Rights and Gay Rights don't 100% work. I know the difference between black people and white people and between gay people and straight people.

It would seem the only ones upset are the extremists and yourself. Everyone else seems to be shrugging their shoulders and saying "whatever" if they even think it merits a thought.

 

[Darat]

Some variation of "It is vitally important that you acknowledge this, but don't you dare act like its any of your business" is a place a lot of arguments seem to want to go to for some reason.

If your gender identity is none of my business, it's also none of my concern. You can't have it both ways.

Who is your audience for the above post?

The extremists?

Yourself?

Someone else?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yes Darat "The extremists" I heard you the first time.

"The Extremists" otherwise known as "The only actual transperson in this discussion's actual opinion."

I didn't make up Boudicca as a strawman (no pun) to argue against. She's the only actual voice from the actual side that this entire discussion is about.

If we can just dismiss her as "an extremists" then what's the bloody point?

It's like I'm being told that "Argue against the actual opinion of the only actual trans-person in this discussion" is somehow unreasonable.

This is what I mean when I say what the transpeople are saying they want and what the transpeople's defenders are saying the transpeople want isn't lining up nearly as much people are acting as if they do.

 

[Butter!]

I noted earlier that this discussion won't ever get anywhere. It can't, because one "side" is unable to take anything the other "side" says at face value. Anyone who expresses concerns about sports or hormones or terminology or whatever is dismissed as a bigot.

From the pro-selfID perspective - It's not that the skeptics' sports concern is so crazy on its own, it's just that they're not really concerned about sports, see? They're only using that seemingly reasonable point of argument to push a hateful, overarching, transphobic agenda. Therefore, their points need not be acknowledged at all. Instead, simply snark at them dismissively, so that at least they know you're onto them and their games.

That's what is going on. Not just here, but everywhere this debate occurs. I don't think there's any way around it currently.

Hope I explained that okay, not feeling very eloquent today.

 

[Meadmaker]

It would seem the only ones upset are the extremists and yourself. Everyone else seems to be shrugging their shoulders and saying "whatever" if they even think it merits a thought.

I don't think that's true at all.

I don't think the girls who don't want to share a locker room with a reproductively capable male are extremists. When they protest the presence of such a person they are obviously not shrugging their shoulders, and the number of them who participate in the protests demonstrate that they are not extremists. Likewise, the people who don't want male bodied athletes in the girls' athletic competitions are not extremists. There are a lot of them, and most of them are willing to compromise in a lot of areas. Those two facts mean that they are not extremists.

 

[theprestige]

When I had to run for PT in the military, the fastest people were always the tallest. Did I complain that it was unfair because I was 5'8" competing against guys who were over 6"? No, they got the luck of the draw there. I could train to the point of matching or exceeding them, but I would also have to put in more work to do so.

Shenanigans. You didn't complain that it was unfair because PT runs aren't a competition. You were never competing against guys who were over 6''. You were all just trying to beat a fairly generous minimum required time for running two miles.

Currently the minimum required time is 16:36 for males, and 19:42 for females, ages 17-21. Interesting how the US Army sees a three and a half minute discrepancy between males and females, that manifestly cannot be overcome by athletic training. Males and females enter basic training with varying degrees of physical fitness. All males exit basic with the same minimum expectation of physical fitness. All females exit basic with the same minimum expectation. And those expectations are different for males and females, even though basic training is essentially the same physical fitness program for both.

This debunks the claim that females just need to train harder to compete with males. (It's also debunked by the fact, acknowledged by Boudicca, that males have to take chemical handicaps to bring them down to female competition levels.)

Also, because it's not a competition, but a minimum requirement, there's no expectation that taller soldiers will always beat shorter soldiers. I find it implausible that they always beat you. Some of them must have been doing minimum-effort jogging, and some of the shorter soldiers must have been doing tryhard personal bests.

I call shenanigans because it sounds like you haven't actually experienced military PT requirements at all.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It still think it's odd that if you take sports segregation, segregation of private but publically accessible spaces like rest rooms and locker rooms, and pronouns off the table there is absolutely nothing here to discuss.

That's a narrow focus for this broad of social movement.

 

[Darat]

Yes Darat "The extremists" I heard you the first time.

"The Extremists" otherwise known as "The only actual transperson in this discussion's actual opinion."

I didn't make up Boudicca as a strawman (no pun) to argue against. She's the only actual voice from the actual side that this entire discussion is about.

If we can just dismiss her as "an extremists" then what's the bloody point?

It's like I'm being told that "Argue against the actual opinion of the only actual trans-person in this discussion" is somehow unreasonable.

This is what I mean when I say what the transpeople are saying they want and what the transpeople's defenders are saying the transpeople want isn't lining up nearly as much people are acting as if they do.

We have extremists on both sides contributing to this thread.

Since these threads came up here I’ve read around a lot and there are many noisy campaigners that are gaining much publicity but they definitely seem to be in the minority.

For example apart from the one example used in an earlier thread i.e. someone who insists that a salon offering “Brazilians” must give them a “sack wax” as they are a transwoman - I’ve not found any of the (UK) campaigning groups that are supporting such an extreme stance. (As I’ve mentioned before that one should be - to anyone with half a brain - obvious as to why the salon can refuse - the salon doesn’t offer a sack wax for either male or female customers.)

 

[Meadmaker]

I didn't make up Boudicca as a strawman (no pun) to argue against. She's the only actual voice from the actual side that this entire discussion is about.

For what it's worth, she isn't the only transwoman to participate in these threads. She is the only one who has pushed her positions that are rather vitriolic and accept no compromise.

 

[Meadmaker]

This debunks the claim that females just need to train harder to compete with males. (It's also debunked by the fact, acknowledged by Boudicca, that males have to take chemical handicaps to bring them down to female competition levels.)

As if it needed to be debunked.

Anyone who even needs to discuss it is not being honest.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That's why I've long argued that this isn't a two way argument, it's a three way argument with only two sides.

The is an argument presenting itself as a simple "Is X and Y the same or different?" (albeit from a billion different angles worded a billion different ways) but it's really "X and Y is the same, X and Y are different, X and Y are different but we're obligated to create the illusion that they are the same."

 

[Meadmaker]

It still think it's odd that if you take sports segregation, segregation of private but publically accessible spaces like rest rooms and locker rooms, and pronouns off the table there is absolutely nothing here to discuss.

That's a narrow focus for this broad of social movement.

To be fair, I think there's nothing else that needs to be discussed here, but in the broader culture in the USA there are issues.

We here at ISF are largely liberal, especially on social issues. We would all say that if you want to wear a dress to school, wear a dress. No one ought to care. You want to be called Janet instead of George? No problem.

I think those views are not universal. I think there are plenty of people, I wouldn't even call them "extremist", who are less tolerant in the United States.

 

[8enotto]

Regional differences will make a huge difference how anomoly behavior of any type is casually accepted or rejected.

A deeply religious rural area won't tolerate an obvious trans nor give much respect. The New York City theatre district won't give much respect to the deeply religious preaching of decadence and sin.

There is no one size fits all solution to everywhere by law or simple quiet tolerance.

Where I live is somewhat in the middle where a trans wouldn't be lynched but certainly won't find equal opportunity in jobs or housing.
Several hours north of me are places with an entire gay and trans subculture soon to include medical clinics catering to the specific needs. Farther south is Nuevo Jerusalem in the rural foothills where the gov public school was closed and run out by the community. All they need is a bible for that. Forget medical services there, god takes care of that too.

London John speaks well of what seems to work in the UK, at least in urban areas. Kudos, progress is made. Mex City is quite accepting too.

The entire world isn't like those two places. Their laws and solutions would be inapplicable.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I can't help but feel that the backwood hicks that are going to disown their son for wearing a dress isn't going to be swayed by an argument that is functionally "Okay but what if your son identified as a woman? Then it's not your son wearing a dress, it's your daughter! See problem solved!"

I can't imagine scenarios where transgenderism is more socially acceptable then just non-traditional gender roles are common enough to factor into the discussion.

 

[Meadmaker]

I can't help but feel that the backwood hicks that are going to disown their son for wearing a dress isn't going to be swayed by an argument that is functionally "Okay but what if your son identified as a woman? Then it's not your son wearing a dress, it's your daughter! See problem solved!"

I can't imagine scenarios where transgenderism is more socially acceptable then just non-traditional gender roles are common enough to factor into the discussion.

Apparently it works in Iran, which is weird. If you're a guy who wants to have sex with a guy, they'll hang you, but you can change to a woman and it's all good.

Or so I'm told. I don't know what really happens in practice, and isn't particularly relevant here, except as an object lesson in what actual extremism looks like, as opposed to "anyone who disagrees with me in the slightest must be an extremist."

But your point is well taken.