Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Boudicca90 said:
10% still doesn't seem like an enormous advantage to me.
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Absurd.

Now you're just taking the piss.

World athletic records come down in fractions of a percent, and 10% isn't an enormous advantage.

Complete dishonesty in the name of "I want".

Disgraceful beyond words.
 
Boudicca90 said:
10% still doesn't seem like an enormous advantage to me.

When I had to run for PT in the military, the fastest people were always the tallest. Did I complain that it was unfair because I was 5'8" competing against guys who were over 6"? No, they got the luck of the draw there. I could train to the point of matching or exceeding them, but I would also have to put in more work to do so.
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I know it is a big thing there, but why US people keep having to bring up the military like people are supposed to give a **** and think it adds something is a weird.

News flash it is a job.
 
Fine, all of you win. I don't need to keep getting insulted and dismissed here, and it's my fault for continuing this despite all the vitriol aimed against me.

You win.
 
Boudicca90 said:
Fine, all of you win. I don't need to keep getting insulted and dismissed here, and it's my fault for continuing this despite all the vitriol aimed against me.

You win.
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Why does there need to be a winner?

For the most part people just find middle ground.

You have from the start seemed to be against this.

She is kind of all or nothing with you.
 
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Boudicca90 said:
I don't care about sports period. Men's, women's, whatever. It is not something I tend to care about in my personal life.
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This is the part I don't get. If you don't care about sports, then why do you care about trans participation in sports so much? And why do you think you know enough about sports to have an informed opinion about it?
 
I try to see all the POV here, but it's very difficult for me to wrap my head around the idea that high school athletes like Matthew Boling ought to be (as a matter of policy) just one self-i.d. away from blowing the women's 100m world record away for good. How is that justifiable, exactly? Why don't the people who've never experienced the physiological advantages of male puberty deserve their own set of record books?

ETA:
 
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Boudicca90 said:
When I had to run for PT in the military, the fastest people were always the tallest. Did I complain that it was unfair because I was 5'8" competing against guys who were over 6"? No, they got the luck of the draw there. I could train to the point of matching or exceeding them, but I would also have to put in more work to do so.
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But that's exactly what you are doing now. You arbitrarily just don't define your biological maleness as 'luck of the draw" but do define your stature that way.

Would it have been different if 5'8" was part of your... pause for dramatic effect... IDENTITY (Trademark, Patent Pending).
 
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cullennz said:
Do you consider a trans women a male or female taking into account basic biology?
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You're asking for a hard line in a wide spectrum and it is largely irrelevant. Any boxes I give you to check off now about who is a man, who is a woman, and who is something in between might not match up with other people's definitions or with how they'll align in the future.

Pardon the pun, but the social and cultural transitions have already started in popular media. Kids just don't have the existential panic being shown even on this board, much less religiously conservative adults.

Once again, I predict that many of the things being argued in this thread will eventually be the kind of thing said by that one uncle, you know the one, at family get-togethers that makes everyone else just cringe. But then, maybe time will prove me wrong.
 
Upchurch said:
Once again, I predict that many of the things being argued in this thread will eventually be the kind of thing said by that one uncle, you know the one, at family get-togethers that makes everyone else just cringe. But then, maybe time will prove me wrong.
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Jesus Goddamn Christ we get it. You're going to get to be the "I told you so" guy. We know. "History will judge us! *Points Fingers* You've said it enough. We get the point. That's a threat, not an argument. And it's assuming that social justice campaigns are inherently always correct. This could be Prohibition as well as it could be Gay Rights.

We're not throwing tomatoes at the little black girl going to white school. We're asking questions so we can get to a solution that more than just one side is happy with. History can judge us for that. We'll live.
 
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Upchurch said:
You're asking for a hard line in a wide spectrum and it is largely irrelevant. Any boxes I give you to check off now about who is a man, who is a woman, and who is something in between might not match up with other people's definitions or with how they'll align in the future.

Pardon the pun, but the social and cultural transitions have already started in popular media. Kids just don't have the existential panic being shown even on this board, much less religiously conservative adults.

Once again, I predict that many of the things being argued in this thread will eventually be the kind of thing said by that one uncle, you know the one, at family get-togethers that makes everyone else just cringe. But then, maybe time will prove me wrong.
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I think you are probably right, and that *many* of the things that are being said are just reactionary nonsense.

But it's difficult to tell, because there are a lot of issues being discussed and I think there are different solutions to each, and some of them simply won't please everyone.

I think the answers to bathrooms/locker rooms are pretty easy to solve.
Some of the answers to sports already have been solved (but people on either side of the issue are unhappy about how they have been solved).
Pronoun usage is largely not a problem, and "younger people" are apparently having no issue with "they" for designated first-person usage.

But that said, simply saying, "History will judge!" hardly helps anyone when history has to be made in the first place.
 
Boudicca90 said:
I never said there aren't advantages there, just that they don't mean that much in the grand scheme of things. There are plenty of other factors that go into success with any sport, for example this quote from the article from The Nation that I linked to earlier:

I contacted Dr. Nicole LaVoi, director of the Tucker Center for Research on Girls & Women in Sport about the way ignorance fuels the fires against these athletes, who told me: “Unfortunately, the backlash surrounding both athletes is in part due to lack of education and factual knowledge about transgender individuals. Both girls are on hormone suppression, which negates any competitive advantage due to testosterone, but most people are unaware of this fact. There are many factors that go into athletic performance—for example, to name a few, physical training, conditioning, dedication, motivation, quality of coaching, nutrition, and psychological skills that get erased when the sole focus is on gender identity and hormones.”

Hormones are a factor, but they aren't the only ones.
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Yes, another important factor not wiped anyway by anything so far is having grown up and gone through puberty as a male, which increases muscle mass, done density, size, and maybe some other factors. These things can give important advantages in some sports that are not removed by hormones after puberty.
 
Upchurch said:
You're asking for a hard line in a wide spectrum and it is largely irrelevant. Any boxes I give you to check off now about who is a man, who is a woman, and who is something in between might not match up with other people's definitions or with how they'll align in the future.

Pardon the pun, but the social and cultural transitions have already started in popular media. Kids just don't have the existential panic being shown even on this board, much less religiously conservative adults.

Once again, I predict that many of the things being argued in this thread will eventually be the kind of thing said by that one uncle, you know the one, at family get-togethers that makes everyone else just cringe. But then, maybe time will prove me wrong.
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Not to pick on Upchurch here, because he's saying things that are pretty mainstream for people who hold his views, but I can't help but notice the vagueness in a lot of answers, and a real reluctance to get to specifics.

We hear over and over that certain things don't matter, and that history is on our side, and that this one is just like the last one, but we seem to not get down to the specifics. Upchurch tells us "it's largely irrelevant", but if it's largely irrelevant, then there must be some small case where it is, in fact, relevant.

Upchurch, if it were never relevant, you could have just said it's irrelevant. You didn't choose to say that, because you know that sometimes, it's relevant.

Previously you talked about how the transgirl's classmates you knew didn't seem to care, and so I asked you if she played sports or took showers with the girls, and if so, did the classmates care? How about it? Are you sufficiently familiar with the situation to answer that question? Because it seems to me that while sex is largely irrelevant, there are times when it isn't irrelevant.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Jesus Goddamn Christ we get it. You're going to get to be the "I told you so" guy. We know. "History will judge us! *Points Fingers* You've said it enough. We get the point.
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Yeah, and I also get it. "Boys have pensises, girls have vaginas, and that's all there could ever possibly be to it."

We're just talking past each other.
 
Upchurch said:
We're just talking past each other.
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And that's entirely all fault, isn't it?

This is getting Jabba-esque. "We wouldn't be having a problem if you would just agree that I'm right before the discussion even starts."
 
Upchurch said:
Yeah, and I also get it. "Boys have pensises, girls have vaginas, and that's all there could ever possibly be to it."

We're just talking past each other.
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There is a place in the middle where

  • there are immutable biological facts that don't necessarily determine one's destiny, but may influence it sometimes, and sometimes not, or they may even be determinative in some situations.
  • support for trans rights doesn't mean that one can't disagree about specific policies or proposals
  • support for some policies or proposals is evidence of bigotry
  • the rights of some folk might need to be balanced with the rights of other folk in some situations.
 
Upchurch said:
I agree. I've been seeing that, as well.
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*Head desk* Because my argument is there is no disagreement. Terminology and semantics is not the same thing as a deep, actual with meaning disagreement.

"I'm a woman if I remove literally all defining characteristics beyond self identifying" is meaningless. It's not right or wrong. It's noise. It's nothing.
 
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