Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Huh. I was digging into body integrity dysphoria, looking for parallels. So far the most interesting parallel is that there's some ethical debate in medicine about whether it's okay to amputate someone's limb just because they've taken a disliking to it.
 
theprestige said:
Huh. I was digging into body integrity dysphoria, looking for parallels. So far the most interesting parallel is that there's some ethical debate in medicine about whether it's okay to amputate someone's limb just because they've taken a disliking to it.
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These are the papers on the topic that I am aware of:

Body integrity identity disorder and Gender Dysphoria: A pilot study to investigate similarities and differences

Gender Dysphoria, Body Dysmorphia, and the Problematic of Body Modification

I also saw this interesting twitter thread but haven't had time to look into any sources that might back this up.

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1224766786178076673
 
theprestige said:
Huh. I was digging into body integrity dysphoria, looking for parallels. So far the most interesting parallel is that there's some ethical debate in medicine about whether it's okay to amputate someone's limb just because they've taken a disliking to it.
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There are quite a few disorder/conditions which could parallel. We treat them differently based on 2 basic things:

1. Do no harm
2. Intervene if they are a danger to themselves or others

Nature's follies do not have morals so it's up to doctors to decide the best outcomes.

Cutting off a healthy leg or arm is a tricky one.

I actually cannot think of other conditions where the patient's desires (however deeply real and emotionally painful) would be affirmed and treatment provided to match other than transgender, and possibly trans-abled (if a doctor is willing).
 
theprestige said:
I think Upchurch is just trying to win the discussion without actually participating in it.
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Emily's Cat said:
Obviously. Toss out vague comments that are supposed to evince some kind of shame from others.
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I assure you, I am arguing in good faith.

I am not transgendered. I cannot claim to know what it feels like to be in their shoes. I don't know all the answers to why some people are transgendered and some are not. I don't know how one can be sure that one is transgendered or not.

I can tell you what it's like to know a few transgendered people, both young and old. I can tell you what it's like to see vitriol being thrown at people for being who just want to openly, and peacefully, live their lives as who they are. I can tell you what it's like to see that destroy a person. Nobody should have to go through that.

I'm not trying to win a discussion. I'm trying to provide a different perspective from a straight cis-man who, for nearly 20 years, has been welcomed into an LGBT community. These are good people. They deserve some respect.

(Yes, that is an appeal to emotion, but how else do you respond to an appeal to emotion?)
 
Emily's Cat said:
What shared understanding and meaning do a transman and a male have in common? What is their common ground?
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I'm way behind on the thread and I'm sorry if people have already answered this one, but I happened to hear a pretty decent radio show / podcast pretty much in the center of the answer space for these queries.

Here it is: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220/testosterone
 
Upchurch said:
I assure you, I am arguing in good faith.

I am not transgendered. I cannot claim to know what it feels like to be in their shoes. I don't know all the answers to why some people are transgendered and some are not. I don't know how one can be sure that one is transgendered or not.

I can tell you what it's like to know a few transgendered people, both young and old. I can tell you what it's like to see vitriol being thrown at people for being who just want to openly, and peacefully, live their lives as who they are. I can tell you what it's like to see that destroy a person. Nobody should have to go through that.

I'm not trying to win a discussion. I'm trying to provide a different perspective from a straight cis-man who, for nearly 20 years, has been welcomed into an LGBT community. These are good people. They deserve some respect.

(Yes, that is an appeal to emotion, but how else do you respond to an appeal to emotion?)
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I hate to break it to you, but you are not the only straight bloke who knows trans and gay people, and just gets on with life like their trans and gay friends.
 
Again not one literal person in this entire discussion is saying trans people don't "deserve respect."

We're just saying that "respect" doesn't mean "100% slavishly agree with them about literally everything."

You can't respect people you are scared to ever disagree with about anything for fear of being shouting down. That's not respect. It's fear.

Again this is especially important since what the one actual transperson is telling us and what the "I have trans friends. I've lived among them, studied their ways. I'm basically a Trans whisperer" people are telling are not really adding up all the much.
 
cullennz said:
I hate to break it to you, but you are not the only straight bloke who knows trans and gay people, and just gets on with life like their trans and gay friends.
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Do you consider this thread an example of getting on with life?

Again, I think it will be interesting to look back on this thread in, say, 10 years.
 
Upchurch said:
Do you consider this thread an example of getting on with life?

Again, I think it will be interesting to look back on this thread in, say, 10 years.
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In a way yes.

It is all just a modern identity politics thing at the end of the day.

Everything has to be labelled as being on this side or that side type thing. And never the Twain shall meet.

The only actual weird thing about it seems to be after this many pages, people ignoring basic science and biology. And going on about it not being reality.
 
Upchurch

Just out of interest as I may have missed your posts.

Do you consider a trans women a male or female taking into account basic biology?
 
Upchurch said:
Again, I think it will be interesting to look back on this thread in, say, 10 years.
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In ten years, what do you think the gender- and/or sex-related eligibility requirements will be for top-level women's association football (soccer) and women's rugby?
 
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Upchurch said:
Do people really not see the parallels here and consider that, just maybe, the world might not be as simple this time either?
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The solution to gay and lesbian rights was incredibly simple and elegant, though. Just let gays and lesbians live and work just like the rest of us. How to deal with gay men in the armed services? Well, exactly like other men. How to deal with gay women in the armed services? Well, exactly like other women. How to deal with gays or lesbians marrying each other? All the usual rights, privileges, and duties.

No need to create new definitions for inclusion in sex-segregated spaces/leagues/etc. AFAIK.
 
theprestige said:
Huh. I was digging into body integrity dysphoria, looking for parallels. So far the most interesting parallel is that there's some ethical debate in medicine about whether it's okay to amputate someone's limb just because they've taken a disliking to it.
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While it's perfectly normal to cut off functional male sex organs, and conduct mastectomies because reasons.
 
Boudicca90 said:
No they don't, treating us as women as much as any other women doesn't take anything away from cis women.

It is all fearmongering, hypotheticals, and extreme examples.
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Selina Soule is not a hypothetical nor an extreme.
 
Boudicca90 said:
No they don't, treating us as women as much as any other women doesn't take anything away from cis women.

It is all fearmongering, hypotheticals, and extreme examples.
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Women trying to survive by making a career and earning a crust from from professional/semi-professional sport, which may or may not be the only thing they are good at, being striped of the opportunity by some biological dude who decides they should be a women, is not hypothetical
 
Boudicca90 said:
I spent the last 4 years living in fear as I have transitioned at the same time Trump and the Republicans have constantly rolled back what little rights we had.
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WE'RE NOT THEM.

The victim card isn't transferable. And it doesn't mean that every disagreement is a hateful attack on you.

Nobody in this thread has rolled back any "rights" for you. "I demand people internally categorize me the same way I internally categorize myself" isn't a right.
 
Boudicca90 said:
No they don't, treating us as women as much as any other women doesn't take anything away from cis women.

It is all fearmongering, hypotheticals, and extreme examples.
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No it isn’t. You have just not been listening to genuine concerns and indeed fears of women posting in this thread.
 
Meadmaker said:
Selina Soule is not a hypothetical nor an extreme.
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She just needs to train harder......

I find the dismissal of the sports issue by so many TRAs to be laughable. Male bodied athletes deprive female athletes of dreams, achievement and even livelihoods. When it comes to contact and combat sports, they are getting physically hurt, even at non-professional levels.

Boudicca90 doesn’t care and wants the right to compete without restriction. How is this taking nothing away from female sportspeople?
 
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