Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Butter!]

Then just accept she has different definitions for some things then you do. Why do feel as if you two have to agree on the definitions? The classic “we shall have to agree to disagree” is a truism because we all do it for the sake of “getting along” in society or rather “managing to coexist even if I am smiling through gritted teeth to do so!”.

There are many things I can agree to disagree with people on. But we're talking about changing the way we understand physical reality. I can't agree to disagree, because societal norms (language, legal, social, etc.) are being changed, and more will likely follow. I'm a part of society, so I have to kind of be a part of it. Therefore, I feel I have to understand what is going on, at least somewhat.

And I thought I more or less did, until sex and gender started meaning the same things sometimes (or maybe all the time, depending on whom you ask).

 

[Louden Wilde]

Holy cow.

Because they are MALE. Because 98% of rapes and sexual assaults are perpetrated by MALES. Because over 90% of the victims of sexual assaults and rapes are FEMALES. Because based on criminal statistics, transwomen commit sexual assaults and rapes at the same rate as OTHER MALES.

Because MALES are bigger and stronger than FEMALES and MALES can make FEMALES pregnant against their will.

Nominated.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't think I've asked you to take a side, or implied that you're a bigot for finding the whole discussion frustrating and a giant gordian knot, but if I have I'm sorry.

That's the point. You act as if staying neutral is a viable option for me.

ETA: And I don't mean me personally, I mean me as a member of society.

 

[Upchurch]

Because based on criminal statistics, transwomen commit sexual assaults and rapes at the same rate as OTHER MALES.

Do you have a source for this? I'm having trouble finding this information.


eta: Most of what I'm finding is statistics of sexual assault against trans folks. And this is of meh value, but suggests the opposite.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's the point. You act as if staying neutral is a viable option for me.

ETA: And I don't mean me personally, I mean me as a member of society.

Well, obviously I have a personal bias in this and would prefer that you didn't stay neutral. But I also have no problem with you throwing up your hands and saying "not my problem".

Realistically, a whole lot of people in society don't even know this discussion is being had. And in a great many venues, it's not being had. Women who challenge this ideology, who push back against it, tend to get silenced and de-platformed. They get banned from social media for being "transphobic" if they object to any of the topics being discussed here.

And FSM forbid they end up getting doxxed.

Most of this is going on behind the scenes. Most women are still under the impression that most transgender people have full reassignment surgery, and have no idea that 80% of transwomen are physically intact males. Most people have no idea that laws are being quietly re-written behind the scenes, and that references to sex are being replaced with gender identity instead. Most have no idea that laws in their area have already been changed, and that people who claim to be transgender have the right to access sex-segregated spaces by law, and that challenging their right to be there is illegal.

This is all happening behind closed doors, with virtually no media coverage, and with women not knowing it's happening.

So there are already a lot of neutral people out there... simply because they have no idea it's happening at all.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you have a source for this? I'm having trouble finding this information.


eta: Most of what I'm finding is statistics of sexual assault against trans folks. And this is of meh value, but suggests the opposite.

Study suggests that transwomen exhibit a male pattern of criminality

Transgender women exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality: Implications for legislators and policy makers.

Goggling is almost impossible. Everything turns up info about violence against transwomen. One of the things most frequently left out of those studies is that a very large portion of the transwomen who are victims of violence, are also sex-workers, and that's not controlled for.

On the other hand..
List of people killed for being transgender Shows a grand total of 10 people killed for being transgender in 2019, in Europe, North America, and Mexico.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Well, obviously I have a personal bias in this and would prefer that you didn't stay neutral. But I also have no problem with you throwing up your hands and saying "not my problem".

Because I actually care.

I don't want you (both you as an individual and you as the symbolic hypothetical "woman" side of this argument) to either be assaulted or live in fear of same.

I don't want Boudicca (both as an individual and as the symbolic hypothetical "trans" side of this argument) to be harassed or feel uncomfortable in her body or be made to feel so.

I don't want be neutral in the sense that I want to no care about this.

 

[cullennz]

Yes, plenty of young dudes have been preyed upon. I don't dispute that at all. But I also don't follow where that is relevant to this discussion. Do you think that allowing transmen into mens spaces and mens roles is likely to increase the likelihood of a boy being assaulted or preyed upon by females? That's not something I've given much thought to, and I confess it seems unlikely to me, but it would certainly be relevant to the topic.

Was answering directly to your point here

"It's not "other people" who end up mistreated. It's females that end up mistreated."

It isn't just females and no I don't think trans men are much of a worry.

It seems to be women, usually ugly weird ones (and they all seem to be teachers for some reason), going by news articles, who mess with little boys, or dudes who are peados

 

[Emily's Cat]

Because I actually care.

I don't want you (both you as an individual and you as the symbolic hypothetical "woman" side of this argument) to either be assaulted or live in fear of same.

I don't want Boudicca (both as an individual and as the symbolic hypothetical "trans" side of this argument) to be harassed or feel uncomfortable in her body or be made to feel so.

I don't want be neutral in the sense that I want to no care about this.

Fair enough. Carry on then.

For the record, I don't want Boudicca (g) to be harassed or made to feel uncomfortable either.

 

[cullennz]

Is it less realistic than demanding that they be accepted as women without question?

Probably yes actually, but then I can't see either happening

 

[Emily's Cat]

Was answering directly to your point here

"It's not "other people" who end up mistreated. It's females that end up mistreated."
It isn't just females and no I don't think trans men are much of a worry.

It seems to be women, usually ugly weird ones (and they all seem to be teachers for some reason), going by news articles, who mess with little boys, or dudes who are peados

I'm following now. My response was supposed to be limited in scope to the context of this thread Not a general comment.

Generally, there are lots of ways that young men are harmed sexually, and there are lots of ways that sexism and gender bias hurt men in general. There's a lot of stuff that needs fixin'.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Probably yes actually, but then I can't see either happening

Why do you think it's more realistic that males who like typically feminine things and presentation would be accepted as women, rather than as men?

Is it realistic because you don't think men in general will go for it, but that women will approve of it? Or that women are easier to push around and won't be able to fight it? Or something else altogether?

I'm not particularly good at mind reading, so I'm spit-balling and there's a good likelihood that I'm off base.

 

[cullennz]

Study suggests that transwomen exhibit a male pattern of criminality

Transgender women exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality: Implications for legislators and policy makers.

Goggling is almost impossible. Everything turns up info about violence against transwomen. One of the things most frequently left out of those studies is that a very large portion of the transwomen who are victims of violence, are also sex-workers, and that's not controlled for.

On the other hand..
List of people killed for being transgender Shows a grand total of 10 people killed for being transgender in 2019, in Europe, North America, and Mexico.

The fist study has one of the most **** poor sample group I have ever seen.

The second doesn't even show it was transgenderism that was the main factor in most of them carking it.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Not realistic though.

I think (would hope, at least) that it's more realistic (to get over these stereotypes) than people literally changing sexes. The latter may happen someday, but we're nowhere near there.

 

[cullennz]

Why do you think it's more realistic that males who like typically feminine things and presentation would be accepted as women, rather than as men?

Is it realistic because you don't think men in general will go for it, but that women will approve of it? Or that women are easier to push around and won't be able to fight it? Or something else altogether?

I'm not particularly good at mind reading, so I'm spit-balling and there's a good likelihood that I'm off base.

I was saying the other way round was more realistic, but probably worded it badly

Might have misinterpreted your question, but I don't think most men would get used to their mates walking round in dresses.

Or sashaying while going on about moisturiser and how big Meghan Merkles arse looks in that dress,

Sorry, that might be stereotyping

 

[cullennz]

I think (would hope, at least) that it's more realistic (to get over these stereotypes) than people literally changing sexes. The latter may happen someday, but we're nowhere near there.

Sorry, but while I have said I am happy if someone thinks they are the opposite sex, to cater for it and just be polite and call him her, but I am not going to walk around pretending they are actually female when it comes to sports achievements and career opportunities for actual females, or things like important medical expendenture and personal safety.

 

[angrysoba]

Because I actually care.

I don't want you (both you as an individual and you as the symbolic hypothetical "woman" side of this argument) to either be assaulted or live in fear of same.

I don't want Boudicca (both as an individual and as the symbolic hypothetical "trans" side of this argument) to be harassed or feel uncomfortable in her body or be made to feel so.

I don't want be neutral in the sense that I want to no care about this.

Hmmm... when they were both in the bathroom, you said you wanted to find the exit. So now when someone says, “okay, go out the exit!” you say, “but I don’t want to!”

 

[gnome]

Okay. I re-read your posts, and I think I inferred a different tone than you may have intended. I suspect I took your effort at neutral language to be more oppositional than it actually was.

It would not be the first time that my tone was unclear. I appreciate you taking the effort.

 

[Upchurch]

Study suggests that transwomen exhibit a male pattern of criminality

Breaks out nothing about sexual assault.

Transgender women exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality: Implications for legislators and policy makers.

Refers to the percentage of sexual assault in the prison population, not in the general trans population.

On the other hand..
List of people killed for being transgender Shows a grand total of 10 people killed for being transgender in 2019, in Europe, North America, and Mexico.

Er, being the victim of sexual assault =/= being a murder victim.


I don’t see how this supports your claim.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Hmmm... when they were both in the bathroom, you said you wanted to find the exit. So now when someone says, “okay, go out the exit!” you say, “but I don’t want to!”

Because I want a solution both of them will accept.

Don't play "You said this, but then you said that (in a totally different context that I'll just LOL pretend not to notice)" gotcha.

I'm frustrated that neither side wants to give an inch while still wanting both of them to get the core of what they want. That doesn't make me a hypocrite.