Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Upchurch said:
This is merely another step in the evolving cultural understanding of people. Remember when being gay was considered a mental disease? Or when interracial relationships were unnatural?

You're taking a position that will eventually become extinct and the cultural norms change to become more reflective up people rather than forcing people to confirm with the then current cultural norms.
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Gay yes. But then it is only recently in the grand scheme of things that it wasn't just the norm'. Which is odd as it wasn't that frowned upon in older history.

Might be some puritan thing or something

Interracial marriages no.

My circles growing up never really cared about it.

Might just be a different country, different cultures thing.
 
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Upchurch said:
And have you interacted with any of these people on a regular basis?
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An interesting question, and I think a good one. There's some value to direct experience. For example, your own:

Upchurch said:
I have been in a band that includes several trans men and the occasional trans woman for nearly two decades now. I've only ever known some of them in their post-transition state. I've played on the same stage with them, sometimes closely (it's a large band). I've shared bathrooms with the trans men.
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Have you ever asked one of your transman bandmates what it is that makes them a man?
 
Upchurch said:
I guess not. That's why I asked.


How so? Are you under the impression that women can not attack and/or rape men in the bathroom? For that matter, are you under the impression that other men can not attack or rape men in the bathroom?
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This is where the tone deafness comes in. Yes, I am aware that it is theoretically possible for a woman to rape a man, and yet it is never, ever, something that I concern myself with. It's just not something that is ever on my mind. That is not the case for any woman, ever. The possibility of rape is always something that is at least in the back of her mind, and actually affects their day to day lives. To say that the both sexes are affected by the issue is technically true, but very much tone deaf.
 
Meadmaker said:
Those are good questions. When it came to my son's friend, when I knew her and was interacting with her on a regular basis, she was a her. By the time she came out as a he, they were in mostly in different schools, and I never saw her in person again. She showed up to eighth grade graduation in the boy uniform, which was the only time I ever saw her in person as a boy. [snip]
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Not to overly simplify, but that's a "no". You have not dealt with someone who in their new presentation on a regular ongoing basis.

Another personal story. My son had a classmate in grade school who transitioned to a trans girl in the second (maybe third?) grade. After stumbling on the name change for maybe a month, it was hard for me to think of her ever not being a girl. And, honestly, the transition was not a surprise for anyone who knew her in the years prior to her transition. When talking to parents of kids who joined the class after her transition, they often had no idea that she had ever not been a girl.

So, if the school community accepted her as a girl (and we all did) and she presented herself as a girl and acted as a girl, what is the actual difference between her and a "real" girl?

Yes, I presume she had a penis (I never checked), but it simply did not matter to anyone.
 
Upchurch said:
Not to overly simplify, but that's a "no". You have not dealt with someone who in their new presentation on a regular ongoing basis.

Another personal story. My son had a classmate in grade school who transitioned to a trans girl in the second (maybe third?) grade. After stumbling on the name change for maybe a month, it was hard for me to think of her ever not being a girl. And, honestly, the transition was not a surprise for anyone who knew her in the years prior to her transition. When talking to parents of kids who joined the class after her transition, they often had no idea that she had ever not been a girl.

So, if the school community accepted her as a girl (and we all did) and she presented herself as a girl and acted as a girl, what is the actual difference between her and a "real" girl?

Yes, I presume she had a penis (I never checked), but it simply did not matter to anyone.
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What is the difference between a boy who wants to present as a girl and act as a girl and a 'real' boy?
 
Upchurch said:
Yes, I presume she had a penis (I never checked), but it simply did not matter to anyone.
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In the third grade, it wouldn't. After puberty, it would, at least in circumstances where people saw each other naked.
 
Meadmaker said:
I think this is exactly correct. The problem is that if people start with the assertion that trans women are really women, they feel that it trumps whatever problems might come up when sperm producers and egg producers are in close proximity under certain situations.
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I could just as easily argue that if people start with the assertion that trans women are not women, they feel that it trumps the other person's concerns. Starting with a broad-stroke maxim is almost always a recipe for failure.

Here is the key: the other person does not need to agree with you on the philosophical point, in order to have the discussion. It doesn't even need to be examined.
 
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theprestige said:
Have you ever asked one of your transman bandmates what it is that makes them a man?
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It's a gay community band. I like to joke that they let me play tuba despite my lack of qualifications. There would have been a time when you might have just as easily asked me what they think makes them "men".

No. I have not asked them what makes them men, just as no one has asked me what makes me a man. It is my preference that I be treated as a man and I extend to them the same courtesy.
 
d4m10n said:
So I happened to be revisiting some old Jon Ronson audio and came across the Hare Psychopathy ChecklistWP as a result. This made me wonder whether there is an analogous diagnostic tool which professionals might use to determine a subject's gender identity. Anyone seen anything which fits the bill?
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Unless someone has come up with one in the last couple of years, since I retired, no.

Assessment requires an awful lot of talking, then some unpicking of that, then some more talking, some more unpicking, establishing what Kid A means by this or that or the other (oddly consideration is given to someone's sexual identity as well as gender identity...). Oh, and ruling out obvious signs of any primary mental illness...And then some more talking and unpicking...Consideration of consent issues (aaaaah, UK-ian consent laws...Can you politicians actually sort them out? Properly?), what Kid A actually thinks they are consenting to, what Kid A wants. Then some more talking and unpicking...And then eventually I'd write a referral letter to the Tavistock, where it would all start again. And eventually an endocrinologist from one of the major London hospitals becomes involved and a lot of it starts again...

The idea that folk involved just start throwing out hormone blockers and accept anything that is said to them is nonsense.
 
gnome said:
I could just as easily argue that if people start with the assertion that trans women are not women, they feel that it trumps the other person's concerns. Starting with a broad-stroke maxim is almost always a recipe for failure.

Here is the key: the other person does not need to agree with you on the philosophical point, in order to have the discussion.
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True. The real hard liners on the issue would talk about bathrooms and say that transwomen are not really women, so they should never be allowed in the ladies' room. Most people here, and in society in general, figure that someone wearing a dress and looking awfully darned feminine, and needing to go to the bathroom, probably ought to just go to the ladies' room and not draw attention to herself.

Most people who participate here are rather pragmatic on that point. Only one of the "regulars" disagrees, based on a slippery slope argument. To be fair, that slippery slope argument has been proven correct, so it's not an unreasonable argument.

I think on the more contentious issues, though, people get a bit more wrapped up in the philosophical.
 
Paul2 said:
Could you please just give a straightforward answer to a straightforward question?
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"Human"?

It's not a straight forward question because it lacks context. If I meet someone on the street, how do I know the quantity and qualities of their gametes? I can make a guess based on physical appearance and manner of dress, perhaps I could infer information from their name. Perhaps they have a card or name tag that specifies their pronouns, in which case, I would use those out of courtesy.

What I absolutely would not do is pat down their groin or take a peek in their pants and determine how do address them over their own preferences, because I am not an *******.
 
Upchurch said:
Social and cultural assumptions and interactions, which is what I've been saying.
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And what a lot of people in this thread have been saying is that there's limits to how far these social and cultural assumptions and interactions can reasonably go, and what should those limits be as a matter of public policy.

And some people have been saying that it's not reasonable to have any limits at all, and that some of the places where people see a reasonble limit (medicine, competitive sports) don't actually matter and can be dismissed without consideration.

So far all you've done is try reset the conversation back to the beginning of the first installment of this thread. Why not try to catch up a little, first?
 
Ziggurat said:
Lots of things CAN happen, but among things that can happen, they do not all actually happen with equal frequency or probability.
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I can guarantee that, statistically, you have shared a restroom with far more gay men than you have trans men. I know I have. I can further guarantee that women have shared bathrooms with far more lesbians than trans women.

Why do we fear monger trans women so much? Is there any actual data supporting the idea that trans women attack women (cis or trans) more than any other group?
 
Upchurch said:
"Human"?

It's not a straight forward question because it lacks context. If I meet someone on the street, how do I know the quantity and qualities of their gametes? I can make a guess based on physical appearance and manner of dress, perhaps I could infer information from their name. Perhaps they have a card or name tag that specifies their pronouns, in which case, I would use those out of courtesy.

What I absolutely would not do is pat down their groin or take a peek in their pants and determine how do address them over their own preferences, because I am not an *******.
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If you meet someone in the locker room, you can take a pretty good guess.

If you see someone finish a race 20 yards ahead of the other racers, you can probably get a pretty good clue.
 
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