It's All Your Fault You Evil Secularists

[Thor 2]

Excerpt from article kindly linked by Gord_in_Toronto:

Stone’s research helps us to understand the decline of religious faith in America over the past 60 years. Secularization is, to be sure, a hugely overdetermined development in American history, and just about everyone has a theory about how it’s happened and why. Religious conservatives would probably cite the loosening of the country’s morals that began in the ’60s and ’70s.

So. The loosening of the countries morals led to the decline in religiosity. Simultaneously, the decline in religious belief led to the loosening of morals. This is the kind of circular reasoning that resonates with the religious.

 

[rjh01]

Excerpt from article kindly linked by Gord_in_Toronto:




So. The loosening of the countries morals led to the decline in religiosity. Simultaneously, the decline in religious belief led to the loosening of morals. This is the kind of circular reasoning that resonates with the religious.

It is a positive feedback loop.
1. Due to a reduction in religious beliefs certain restrictions that exist only to please the religious are removed.
2. When the universe does not collapse due to these changes religious beliefs are reduced.
3. Go to step 1.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Every household must, by law, have two nativity scenes set up on their front lawn at Christmas. One for them, and the other for a tragically poor secular family. It will help make it more Christian if they are decorated with thousands of flashing lights, just like it happened in ancient Bethlehem.

Oh *slaps forehead* the word was "NATIVITY!" I always thought it's supposed to represent how she got pregnant. (Let's just say, google, "splash conception.") As I explained. To quite a number of police officers on my lawn

You'd think they could just send one or two to sort it out, but that's nanny state and tax money at work, folks

 

[Darat]

I always find it amusing that countries (“western world”) with established churches seem to be the ones that are more non-religious or out and out atheist.

 

[Pope130]

I always find it amusing that countries (“western world”) with established churches seem to be the ones that are more non-religious or out and out atheist.

Perhaps this is an indication that governments are not very good at running religions.

A possible reason for this is that an overly structured state religion can't respond quickly to market trends, resulting in loss of customers.

The US model of free market religion can respond better by modifying beliefs to accommodate sales trends, or launching whole new brands. "Free Range Gods!"

Edit to add: It occurs that it is also possible that state religions are badly run deliberately to encourage secularism, in which case: Good job Europeans!

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

A lot of state religions in Europe were a result of the wars of religion in the 1600's and were at least partially instated to prevent that bloodshed from occurring again.

Those fanatics that REALLY wanted to be free to kill those that disagreed with them emigrated to the America's.
Sorry guys.

 

[Pope130]

A lot of state religions in Europe were a result of the wars of religion in the 1600's and were at least partially instated to prevent that bloodshed from occurring again.

Those fanatics that REALLY wanted to be free to kill those that disagreed with them emigrated to the America's.
Sorry guys.

I'm familiar with that from family history. I'm descended from Susana Martin, one of the last Salem women executed as witches, and related to Sarah Good, one of the first.

 

[gnome]

Last good stats I heard any 12 step program has about the same real recovery rate as going cold turkey. About 5%, I would assume the religion sticks equally.

I think an assessment like that requires a little more detail. Do you mean literally "cold turkey" only, or more generally attempting to quit without a program? It seems like "cold turkey" is too specific a method to be the default contrasting statistic to AA. There are other ways to attempt it without AA.

As well, you might get differing results based on how you define recovery. Still sober after a year? Three? Ten? What about someone who's had some relapses but still mostly sober?

Should we include on the "AA" side, other programs that include a relationship with a sponsor (which I consider the true signature element)?

Which is just to say that it may not be easy to paint such a clear picture. It could be the statistics you looked at went into all of that. I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[8enotto]

Yup, cold turkey as in no program or organization behind the person changing thier lives.

It was on Penn and Teller BS show when they did a part on these AA and similar church run addiction programs.
They had done the research and found the magic percentage off a government study, and not from the programs themselves. Elimination of the bias.

My own life experience reflects thier ideas.

 

[arthwollipot]

In my understanding, where 12-step programmes work at all, they mainly work with people who already have a highly religious worldview. They're not very good at converting nonbelievers.

 

[Tassman]

Why American Children Stopped Believing in God

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/12/why-american-children-stopped-believing-in-god/

I agree with that. We are programmed by genes and social pressures, and take our decisions either deterministically or randomly – but not freely. We are largely what we have been acculturated to be.

 

[Norman Alexander]

The implication from the story is that "religious education in public schools is good and necessary", and thus the inverse is therefore "bad". And that things used to be "good" before religious education was removed.

As far as I can tell, this is basic simplistic propaganda. I would wonder how much the writer thinks it is true, and who he is preaching to. (He appears young...)

My insta-Google search just now says religious instruction was removed about 1963 as the result of a certain court case. That was nigh on 60 years ago now. And yet somehow the USA has soldiered on reasonably successfully since then.

What this author seems to fail to explain is that US public schools are not religion-free. Students are taught ABOUT religion, in many different ways. And students are free to express their religion as well, within certain bounds of propriety, I gather. So it is not like teachers patrol the grounds and classrooms looking for recalcitrants mumbling the Lord's Prayer into their lockers, or holding secretive prayer meetings under the bleachers.

Instead, the obvious deduction is that increased education in a wider variety of skills, and more exposure to cultures, thoughts and technologies, has acted as a vaccination against the more restrictive religious teachings. People like this author simply cannot allow people to question religious instruction. Not content with holding their own views to themselves, they want to impose them on others. More simply: they want to be the Thought Police.

But this isn't new, by any means.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The implication from the story is that "religious education in public schools is good and necessary", and thus the inverse is therefore "bad". And that things used to be "good" before religious education was removed.

As far as I can tell, this is basic simplistic propaganda. I would wonder how much the writer thinks it is true, and who he is preaching to. (He appears young...)

My insta-Google search just now says religious instruction was removed about 1963 as the result of a certain court case. That was nigh on 60 years ago now. And yet somehow the USA has soldiered on reasonably successfully since then.

What this author seems to fail to explain is that US public schools are not religion-free. Students are taught ABOUT religion, in many different ways. And students are free to express their religion as well, within certain bounds of propriety, I gather. So it is not like teachers patrol the grounds and classrooms looking for recalcitrants mumbling the Lord's Prayer into their lockers, or holding secretive prayer meetings under the bleachers.

Instead, the obvious deduction is that increased education in a wider variety of skills, and more exposure to cultures, thoughts and technologies, has acted as a vaccination against the more restrictive religious teachings. People like this author simply cannot allow people to question religious instruction. Not content with holding their own views to themselves, they want to impose them on others. More simply: they want to be the Thought Police.

But this isn't new, by any means.

From personal experience as a child -- at least on step on the road to "losing" your religion is learning that there are other religions.

 

[JoeMorgue]

From personal experience as a child -- at least on step on the road to "losing" your religion is learning that there are other religions.

That's why the whole "Oh but you see all religions are trying to say the same thing but are just looking at it differently..." stuff ticks me off so much. It's not just pandering rationalization, it's hilariously false and dangerous.

Penn Jillette said, and I agree, that intellectually he respects fundamentalist more than wishy-washy "Oh we all make our own path" people.

He said something to the effect of "If you say 'I think the world works this way' and I say 'No you are wrong the world works this way' that is how we get to truth. 'Oh you see nobody is wrong, everybody is just going their own way' is how you speak to a child, and I bristle at that."

 

[Galaxie]

From personal experience as a child -- at least on step on the road to "losing" your religion is learning that there are other religions.

Agreed. I went to a Lutheran school from Kindergarten to 8th grade. All I was ever told is that Martin Luther was right, and everyone that came before or after was wrong. So right there, I was like, "Wait, why are there still Catholics then? And what about these Mormons who come to my door?"

Then I went to a public high school and the first history class had a unit on religions. Oops! Imagine my surprise to find out Christianity isn't anything special.

 

[Thor 2]

From personal experience as a child -- at least on step on the road to "losing" your religion is learning that there are other religions.

That's why the whole "Oh but you see all religions are trying to say the same thing but are just looking at it differently..." stuff ticks me off so much. It's not just pandering rationalization, it's hilariously false and dangerous.

Penn Jillette said, and I agree, that intellectually he respects fundamentalist more than wishy-washy "Oh we all make our own path" people.

He said something to the effect of "If you say 'I think the world works this way' and I say 'No you are wrong the world works this way' that is how we get to truth. 'Oh you see nobody is wrong, everybody is just going their own way' is how you speak to a child, and I bristle at that."

Yes and yes.

I am continually stunned by the way the religious just will not address this issue. There are different religions and the one you are stuck with, happens to be depends on where you were born. Those who try to blend the religions and make them somehow complimentary, are pathetic. Jesus is the only way ........ but ??

 

[8enotto]

There is a program on our version of the pbs channels that once a week does a respectful, if theology neutral show of a different church type in Mexico.

The have done Scientology, deep fundy types, a gay Catholic type church and others over the last year.

The more off the wall loose types had no qualms about editing the same bible all the christian types use to casually not mention stuff that others know is sinful. Happy clappy gay catholics in a church with a rainbow on the wall in place of a crucifix. Saying all the same basic things as the fundy types except they are going to hell for a mortal sin.

And the other saying they are without doubt.

Nobody wants to be wrong, but if they can get a person to become religious they probably can fill his head with ideas to become their version of the one true church.
But the minds closed to religious belief at all are useless to them.

In this it makes sense to get the mark to open to the idea of any religious belief then convince them yours is the best version.

Its how my dad tried to pull us from perceived catholic to his fundy beliefs as teens.
But both parents telling the kids the other is dead wrong, and neither able to evidence how theirs was so right made 3 of us lazy atheists, one a mix of Lutheran and Jewish, and the oldest stayed catholic.

For some its important work to save souls. For others its a pain in the backside to have to deal with them at all.

 

[Thor 2]

There is a program on our version of the pbs channels that once a week does a respectful, if theology neutral show of a different church type in Mexico.

The have done Scientology, deep fundy types, a gay Catholic type church and others over the last year.

The more off the wall loose types had no qualms about editing the same bible all the christian types use to casually not mention stuff that others know is sinful. Happy clappy gay catholics in a church with a rainbow on the wall in place of a crucifix. Saying all the same basic things as the fundy types except they are going to hell for a mortal sin.

And the other saying they are without doubt.

As an evil secularist, I can never understand the minds of the faithful. The faithful who stand condemned by scripture, and yet try to mould the religion, that clearly has them plummeting to damnation, into a modified form that embraces them. It sure beats me.

Happy clappy gay Catholics? Jesus Christ in a tutu perhaps? I wonder about Francis's take on this. No not Francis so much I suppose, but his more conservative frocked entourage.

Nobody wants to be wrong, but if they can get a person to become religious they probably can fill his head with ideas to become their version of the one true church.
But the minds closed to religious belief at all are useless to them.

In this it makes sense to get the mark to open to the idea of any religious belief then convince them yours is the best version.

So you think if faith is there in some form, the person is more susceptible to be converted to another faith, in line with that of the converter?

Its how my dad tried to pull us from perceived catholic to his fundy beliefs as teens.
But both parents telling the kids the other is dead wrong, and neither able to evidence how theirs was so right made 3 of us lazy atheists, one a mix of Lutheran and Jewish, and the oldest stayed catholic.

For some its important work to save souls. For others its a pain in the backside to have to deal with them at all.

Thanks for your interesting glimpses, into your religiously mixed up family 8enotto. I can imagine some chaotic scenes.

 

[8enotto]

The mind of the faithful seems to need guidance where the secular mind finds solutions in the real world. No magic or almighty forces required.
I was told by a deeply rooted fundy guy that those solutions are deception by the devil and we must pray for guidance to be on a true path.

I didn't continue the conversation from there for just knowing it dead ended. He knew THE TRUTH and that was it.

My dad was converted to six exclusive apocolyptic churches over time and the key thing to him was that but a small number of faithful would get to heaven. Always under 10,000, after all god must like only the most true to him, not those that came close.
He lived an austere life and spent his days in bible study after he retired. At least he wasn't a hypocrite.
If anyone would know how to slide from one set of details to another without upsetting his core faith it was him. He had no shame is applying the tactics to anyone that would listen to him talk.


Chaotic moments to epic battles of agreements made decades ago being violated or being unfair. Depending on your side.
Most of the time an uneasy peace with everyone avoiding certian topics at any cost.
Twenty odd years of that ended in a divorce that gave everyone but my younger siblings freedom. They had to fight three more years to get freedom from religion.

 

[Thor 2]

The mind of the faithful seems to need guidance where the secular mind finds solutions in the real world. No magic or almighty forces required.

As well as that perhaps the faithful seem to crave purpose, where as the secularist is comfortable in the absence of such. I have discussed this with my late brother, who was incredulous at my lack of need to want to know why.

I was told by a deeply rooted fundy guy that those solutions are deception by the devil and we must pray for guidance to be on a true path.

I didn't continue the conversation from there for just knowing it dead ended. He knew THE TRUTH and that was it.

The smug certainty of these guys, that they are indeed being guided on the true path and not deceived by the Devil, is impossible to dent. They just know is the answer and the veracity of their certainty cannot be measured by any means.

My dad was converted to six exclusive apocolyptic churches over time and the key thing to him was that but a small number of faithful would get to heaven. Always under 10,000, after all god must like only the most true to him, not those that came close.
He lived an austere life and spent his days in bible study after he retired. At least he wasn't a hypocrite.
If anyone would know how to slide from one set of details to another without upsetting his core faith it was him. He had no shame is applying the tactics to anyone that would listen to him talk.


Chaotic moments to epic battles of agreements made decades ago being violated or being unfair. Depending on your side.
Most of the time an uneasy peace with everyone avoiding certian topics at any cost.
Twenty odd years of that ended in a divorce that gave everyone but my younger siblings freedom. They had to fight three more years to get freedom from religion.

There may be some truth to the belief that marrying outside your faith is not a good idea.