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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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I wasn't that angry before, but I'm certainly getting that way when people like you won't listen to what I say. For the final goddamn time, I am not going to answer that question!

This seems... self-contradictory. How can anyone listen to an answer that you refuse to provide?

Or have you confused listening with agreement? Because they aren't the same thing at all.
 
Your mom's a kunzorenplat!

(Sorry)
She may well have been. She and my father were the ones who gave me the chance to hear the word on their Tom Lehrer record. Damn, I can't remember which song (and I have memorized all of them, within practical limits).

My spelling may be off for that made-up word that only exists on audio.
 
This seems... self-contradictory. How can anyone listen to an answer that you refuse to provide?

Or have you confused listening with agreement? Because they aren't the same thing at all.

She really is a woman! :boxedin:
 
She may well have been. She and my father were the ones who gave me the chance to hear the word on their Tom Lehrer record. Damn, I can't remember which song (and I have memorized all of them, within practical limits).

My spelling may be off for that made-up word that only exists on audio.

Could it have been Bob Newhart? A google search for your word brings me to:

gazorninplat

Random word typed by a monkey that was otherwise showing promise in an experiment to prove the infinite monkey theorem. Attributed to Bob Newhart who created this word for his infinite monkeys comedy sketch from 1960.
To be or not to be, that is the gazorninplat
 
...to put us in our place based on your preconceived notions.

You mean preconceived and idiotic notions, like saying women can train harder to compete against men in sports?

The irrational behaviour is all on your side and you have put yourself in that place entirely on your own.

You should try to find someone independent to read this thread, where people have shown a willingness to accept some change, while you yourself display nothing but an inflexible and selfish attitude.

Like all squeaky wheels, nimbys and other forms of low-life, the trans lobby wants to have its own way and **** what anyone else thinks.

The saddest news is, you've personally not just displayed that, but you've also turned off people who could be allies.

And then you have the nerve to insult JK Rowling and others for speaking against the complete selfishness and stupidity of the trans lobby.

Well played.
 
Yes, and that's why I did try to emphasize that I don't know whether it would work or not. I don't like to get too far into the sports debate, because I admit that I know nothing. I'm not a sports fan, but I'm also not a sports hater. I defend sports against their haters, in fact. I think they're an important part of human culture, down through the ages. I would like a solution that worked for most people.

Skill leagues are generally said to be a bad solution by sports fans. Would that be very different from the way things are now, though? Wouldn't we still end up with a league that consisted of mostly cis-women?

There is a wide variety of a skill within a group and that is fine when it comes from practice and training. When you throw in a group that are immediately superior based on nothing but genetics regardless of time and training (Kramer in a kid's karate class comes to mind.) the fairness is gone.

I've brought up the point before, why not just put all trans-athletes in with men. The distribution will be much more even. You will have the Caitlyn Jenners (very few of them) still winning decathlons, you'll have trans-women distributed downwards based on skill and ability, and you will have trans-males clustered toward the bottom.

Women are a special group based on genetics and the only fair thing to do is to have them compete against each other unless they choose to join men's leagues.

To me that's all fair but we never hear that suggested. What we hear, and always from those with the better genetics or higher levels of male hormones is they want to compete against women. In my opinion it is nothing more than a sorry excuse to gain an unfair advantage. Punching down.

For years everyone told women that if they wanted to play they should make their own leagues and events. They did. And now they are being told that they must accommodate people with an unfair advantage in the very leagues they created. Why is no one suggesting that trans-people create their own leagues and events where they can compete fairly. Why aren't trans-people embracing the equality of the idea? The reasons are; It's hard work, there aren't enough athletes to make it worthwhile (just enough to screw things up for women athletes), and very few would watch.
 
I've brought up the point before, why not just put all trans-athletes in with men.

Because then you don't accept trans-women as "REAL WOMEN (Trademark, Patent Pending)" and that's a problem.

But again the more we discuss this the less I know what anyone involved actually wants.
 
I called them TERFs because that's the ideology they spout. I don't mean it as "bitch", but since that is a typical attribute of TERFs, one follows the other.



I've made this clear in the past to others. No.



I absolutely believe that, and it is not a radical idea since we have had Self ID here in California for a while now: https://www.courts.ca.gov/25798.htm

I don't care about fraudulent claims. They are rare and shouldn't affect the laws that affect us. They will be dealt with if they come up. Otherwise it is just not an issue big enough for me to bother with.



Yes. It appears that in this thread (and in real life) there's this big "reefer madness"-style fear being spread around that straight cismen are going to start self-ID'ing as women in order to be able to infiltrate women-only spaces and (presumably) say or do things to harm the ciswomen within those spaces.

Firstly, I (and I presume you also), would like to see actual evidence that this either a) is a problem right now, or b) is forecast to be a problem in the future. I think I can attach a high degree of confidence that it's virtually non-existent right now*, and nor do I forsee it becoming much more than that in the future.

And I'll explain why: the very small proportion of straight cismen who harbour desires to harass (and worse) ciswomen are driven primarily by a desire to exercise power/domination - sexually and physically - over ciswomen. And a necessary component of this is the desire to present themselves as "red-blooded" alpha males.

So therefore, the very notion - even if it's no more than hypothetical - of gaining entry to these women-only spaces by virtue of pretending to be a transwoman.... is anathema to the (very small proportion) of straight cismen who might seek to do such things.

Anyhoo.... back to your regular programming :)


(Ohhhh and for the avoidance of any lingering doubt: in my previous two posts within this current thread, where I was writing in italics, those italicised passages categorically did not represent my own views. Keen-eyed readers might have noticed that I was re-presenting the argument of the poster to whose post I was responding - and countering their position by showing just how ludicrous (and offensive) their claims would sound if they were applied to another social/sexual minority group (eg gay men). I thought I'd made it very clear (not least by the word-for-word repetition, and the use of italics) that I was employing a rhetorical device, as opposed to stating my own beliefs. But obviously that still was not clear enough for some....)


* I certainly don't ever recall having read/heard anything about straight cismen using the "transwoman" ruse to enter women-only spaces (eg sports centre changing rooms**, women's refuges, etc) to commit criminal acts. If anyone here does have such historical evidence, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

** And it's worth remembering that wrt many women-only spaces (notably sports/swimming changing rooms), any straight cisman could walk through the unlocked door at will at any time anyhow. The perceived threat to ciswomen in such spaces is neither lessened nor heightened by allowing transwomen to use them.
 
Lucha libre in Mexico has successfully mixed men and women in the show. But it's obvious that the women don't do the same tricks or receive the same abuse as the men.

In one, the AAA organization, there are two obvious transwomen that do play a lot harder than the actual women.

Nobody makes any distinction as they are all cartoon character types in a practiced roadshow. There is fairness and equality all rolled into one tiny subculture. They can't really hurt each other as the show would be disrupted and made it work seamlessly for the fans.

Success
 
Yes. It appears that in this thread (and in real life) there's this big "reefer madness"-style fear being spread around that straight cismen are going to start self-ID'ing as women in order to be able to infiltrate women-only spaces and (presumably) say or do things to harm the ciswomen within those spaces.

Firstly, I (and I presume you also), would like to see actual evidence that this either a) is a problem right now, or b) is forecast to be a problem in the future. I think I can attach a high degree of confidence that it's virtually non-existent right now*, and nor do I forsee it becoming much more than that in the future.

And I'll explain why: the very small proportion of straight cismen who harbour desires to harass (and worse) ciswomen are driven primarily by a desire to exercise power/domination - sexually and physically - over ciswomen. And a necessary component of this is the desire to present themselves as "red-blooded" alpha males.

So therefore, the very notion - even if it's no more than hypothetical - of gaining entry to these women-only spaces by virtue of pretending to be a transwoman.... is anathema to the (very small proportion) of straight cismen who might seek to do such things.

Anyhoo.... back to your regular programming :)


(Ohhhh and for the avoidance of any lingering doubt: in my previous two posts within this current thread, where I was writing in italics, those italicised passages categorically did not represent my own views. Keen-eyed readers might have noticed that I was re-presenting the argument of the poster to whose post I was responding - and countering their position by showing just how ludicrous (and offensive) their claims would sound if they were applied to another social/sexual minority group (eg gay men). I thought I'd made it very clear (not least by the word-for-word repetition, and the use of italics) that I was employing a rhetorical device, as opposed to stating my own beliefs. But obviously that still was not clear enough for some....)


* I certainly don't ever recall having read/heard anything about straight cismen using the "transwoman" ruse to enter women-only spaces (eg sports centre changing rooms**, women's refuges, etc) to commit criminal acts. If anyone here does have such historical evidence, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

** And it's worth remembering that wrt many women-only spaces (notably sports/swimming changing rooms), any straight cisman could walk through the unlocked door at will at any time anyhow. The perceived threat to ciswomen in such spaces is neither lessened nor heightened by allowing transwomen to use them.

I know you struggle with this concept.

I don't know why as you seem to grasp the sensitivities of trans women.

But you seem to not be able to grasp the issue of a vast number of older females and young females just not being comfortable with some male waving his donger around in a changing room because they feel female in their head, while they are trying to get dressed.

How about addressing this issue, rather than going on about threats?

Yes apparently a miniscule amount of males who think they are female get stressed in male changing rooms.

A lot more females feel stressed with males in their changing rooms.

There are two sides. I get you are more worried about the extreme minority over all other females comfort, but at least try to take both into your thinking.

I personally see no viable outcome, without every single one being some self contained cubicle, which isn't going to happen retrospectively as it is too expensive.

In the interim everyone is just welcome to use the dudes as we tend not to give a ****.
 
Yes. It appears that in this thread (and in real life) there's this big "reefer madness"-style fear being spread around that straight cismen are going to start self-ID'ing as women in order to be able to infiltrate women-only spaces and (presumably) say or do things to harm the ciswomen within those spaces.

Yet, we know this happens.

I'm glad you're prepared to wave that concern away, but you're not a woman, so what you think is less than relevant.

Actual women aren't comfortable with the idea, and given Boudicca's insane rants on her "rights", I don't blame them one bit.
 
It's been 5 threads now of

"Okay I have a questi-"

"Let me stop you there and complain about moral panics over men poising as women to be peeping toms..."

The fact that bigotry and fear against trans people doesn't mean no valid question exists in the entire discussion.
 
It's been 5 threads now of

"Okay I have a questi-"

"Let me stop you there and complain about moral panics over men poising as women to be peeping toms..."

The fact that bigotry and fear against trans people doesn't mean no valid question exists in the entire discussion.

For the 1 thousandth and 12th time probably. You seem to miss the point that a lot of women are just not comfortable getting changed next to males who think the are chicks in their head, waving their willies round.

Yes I get you think trans women's feelings trump this, but either way one lot are going to be sensitive over the outcome.

Personally think you should probably go with the one with the most people being made uncomfortable, feel comfortable.

This doesn't necessarily relate to any threat of harm.
 
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For the 1 thousandth and 12th time probably. You seem to miss the point that a lot of women are just not comfortable getting changed next to males who think the are chicks in their head, waving their willies round.

Yes I get you think trans women's feelings trump this, but either way one lot are going to be sensitive over the outcome.

Personally think you should probably go with the one with the most people being made uncomfortable, feel comfortable.

This doesn't necessarily relate to any threat of harm.

*Looks to my left... looks to my right...*

Oh you're talking to me. I'm really confused because I've never said anything even resembling anything like that.
 
*Looks to my left... looks to my right...*

Oh you're talking to me. I'm really confused because I've never said anything even resembling anything like that.

Sorry

It is my fault. This whole thread combined is getting a bit complicated.

Lol
 
The transsexual sports debate has really forced advocates to confront the equivocation of I feel like a woman to I'm an actual real 100 percent genuine woman because I feel like a woman.
 
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