Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[theprestige]

The word "biological woman" seems to be just as much up for grabs as "woman" because as a modifier "biological" adds no extra information. We are all animals, and all animals are biological. A non-biological woman would be a gynoid like in Ex Machina. I.e. An artificial woman.

So basically all I'm saying is that "biological" is a meaningless modifier unless you are making a distinction between a person and a robot.

Part of the problem in this discussion is that the Female-Exclusionary Trans Activists keep trying to repurpose or erase any terms used to indicate genetic or biological gender, as opposed to fiat or social gender.

"Biological" is a meaningful modifier because it distinguishes between people with biologically female attributes, and people without those attributes. This is a very important consideration when debating transsexual accommodations in public policy.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

In previous bits of this thread, it seems like Boudicca expressed a pretty pragmatic view about that. She didn't seem to be particularly bent if it was a deal breaker. I believe she was more frustrated by the "tranny chasers".

I can only sympathize. It's got to be rough, to view oneself as a woman, present as a woman, and pass as a woman, and be attracted to heterosexual men. Similar to the transwomen who are attracted to lesbians. I don't see that there's a real way to square that circle. Seems like maybe bisexual and pansexual folks are probably the way to go. I dunno. I am grateful that's not a problem I have ever had to untangle.

 

[8enotto]

Boudicca90 lives in CA which is tolerant if not welcoming of trans and similar. Those attitudes displayed are safe in that world. Probably common.

As displayed here on the forum we encompass a much wider view from tooth gritting acceptance to full acceptance of diversity.
At that we even pick and choose what won't be accepted.

Also the range of places we all live will determine how openly diversity can be displayed even if it's accepted.

No one could act on how boudicca90 wants in that rant where I am. Not because of me, but society here wouldn't tolerate boys on a girl's team. On a mixed team without question, but that wouldn't give any desired affirmation of what trans types want.
Telling the girls to toughen up when they get trounced by a trans team wouldn't go far.

 

[Boudicca90]

You have entered Orwellian realms with this use of “biological woman”. No, you are not a biological woman at all.

I absolutely am. Genetics say nothing about sex and gender. Being genetically XX doesn't determine if someone is female just like being XY doesn't determine if someone is male. And none of it is binary at all, sex and gender is a spectrum we can find ourselves on at any point.

Gender and sex live in the brain, not what chromosomes we ended up with. It is influenced by a mix of biology, psychology, and social experience. I ended up female, biologically female at that, just as much as Emily's Cat. But sometimes a person's sex, gender, and biology don't line up properly.

I am a biological woman as much as any ciswoman. And I'm not going to give in to the fear and hatred of us by ciswomen any more. I'm done trying to spare their feelings. And I don't give a crap if you or any other person on this board considers me delusional.

I am a biological woman, that is a fact.

 

[Puppycow]

"Biological" is a meaningful modifier because it distinguishes between people with biologically female attributes, and people without those attributes. This is a very important consideration when debating transsexual accommodations in public policy.

Maybe, but I think it is imprecise, because "biological" can have multiple meanings, some of which clearly apply to transgender people. This is why I have resorted to using the words "male" and "female" instead of "man" and "woman", so as to reduce the ambiguity. Perhaps we could replace terms like "women's sports" with "female sports" so that the category is clarified?

I agree that it is unfair to allow males to participate in most sports intended for females, because male hormones are effectively a performance-enhancing drug for athletes. A female athlete who took testosterone injections would not be allowed to compete in the Olympics, for example. This is relatively uncontroversial. Even if she only took them during training and stopped taking them months before the competition so that her hormone levels would be normal at the time of competition, it could conceivably still confer an unfair advantage.

 

[Boudicca90]

The irony here is that pretty much every one of the "TERFs" in this thread have expressed a clear desire to meet transsexuals more than halfway, and accommodate them in almost every area of social participation. The only real sticking points have been over agreement on terminology for biological facts (e.g., "male-bodied"), and over social constructs that are closely tied to biological facts (such as locker rooms, medical care, and competitive sports).

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

No, hardly anybody in here supports our right to be fully accepted as the sex and gender we are. Even allies like London John, as supportive as he has been, has a point where he is willing to discriminate against us. It's just varying degrees of discrimination based on how far everyone is willing to tolerate us.

I'm not going to wait for your permission, not going to wait for society to feel comfortable with us.

I can tolerate being discarded for the genitals I have, but not for being born trans in the first place. I've been through it enough at this point. And I'm not just attracted to men, I'm polysexual, I have a girlfriend right now. I'm attracted to many genders, but I do have my preferences.

Don't worry Emily's Cat, ciswomen are not my thing and never have been. So you are safe from my dreaded penis.

 

[theprestige]

No, hardly anybody in here supports our right to be fully accepted as the sex and gender we are. Even allies like London John, as supportive as he has been, has a point where he is willing to discriminate against us. It's just varying degrees of discrimination based on how far everyone is willing to tolerate us.

I'm not going to wait for your permission, not going to wait for society to feel comfortable with us.

I can tolerate being discarded for the genitals I have, but not for being born trans in the first place. I've been through it enough at this point. And I'm not just attracted to men, I'm polysexual, I have a girlfriend right now. I'm attracted to many genders, but I do have my preferences.

Don't worry Emily's Cat, ciswomen are not my thing and never have been. So you are safe from my dreaded penis.

Oh dear. This just keeps getting worse and worse. You actually believe your testes are biologically equivalent to ovaries.

Would you say this belief is common among trans activists?

 

[Meadmaker]

I'm not going to wait for your permission, not going to wait for society to feel comfortable with us.

So...uhhh...what are your plans, then?


I mean, you aren't waiting for permission, to do what?


However, when it comes to terms like "biological female" or "woman" or "sex", you might be using those terms differently than everyone else is. It could lead to some misunderstandings. Using common definitions facilitates communication, but you go ahead and do your own thing.

 

[Ziggurat]

I absolutely am. Genetics say nothing about sex and gender.

Gender is ill-defined, especially in the current context, so whatever. But genetics absolutely says everything about sex. What do you think sex even is?

Being genetically XX doesn't determine if someone is female just like being XY doesn't determine if someone is male.

Technically correct, in the sense that the relevant genes may or may not reside on those chromosomes. But they usually do, and when they do, they determine sex.

And none of it is binary at all, sex and gender is a spectrum we can find ourselves on at any point.

Gender may be a spectrum, though again, that's ill defined. Certain sexual characteristics may be a spectrum. But sex itself: not a spectrum, at least not in mammals. You either have the genes that make you male, or you don't.

I am a biological woman as much as any ciswoman.

No, you are most certainly not.

And I'm not going to give in to the fear and hatred of us by ciswomen any more.

That's a non-sequitor. No one here wants you to live in fear. Nor does it make any sense that acknowledging you aren't biologically female would lead you to fear. Fear what? A rudimentary understanding of genetics?

I'm done trying to spare their feelings.

I think you will find that posters here are done trying to spare yours.

And I don't give a crap if you or any other person on this board considers me delusional.

The real danger with delusions isn't that other people think a person is delusional.

I am a biological woman, that is a fact.

No, it isn't.

 

[caveman1917]

I am a biological woman

You are demonstrably not.

 

[8enotto]

Boudicca, you chose your path in life. And some really tough choices along the way.

Openly gay in a military uniform was one you mentioned. Doesn't take a genius to say that was going against the grain of military society. Then after getting out of that you decided to be trans when being just gay out of the military would have gone unnoticed.

Don't blame the rest of us you want to stand out from the crowd. Not only that but try to make us agree a self admitted male turned trans is now somehow female, or woman.
Our eyes can't see what's in your head. We see what stands in front of us. Figuratively in this case.

Your reality isn't ours. Nobody hates you for that. Still, we aren't going to toss out our reality to appease you.
Do what everyone else is trying to do and make a life for yourself where you can be happy. Don't try to fix the rest of the world to your ideas along the way.

 

[caveman1917]

Seeing this claim (or that 'sex is a spectrum') on Twitter is how what got me diving into these issues (I'm a biologist with foci in mammalian genetics, development, epigenetics; now in clinical genetics). FWIW, it's becoming an increasingly pedestrian claim. I suspect it is a short jump from 'TWAW'.

I'm telling you, the pomos are at it again. We've had this exact same stuff in physics in the 90's-00's too, they got laughed out and apparently they decided to go for biology instead. I have to say though that your field doesn't seem to be all that resilient to it as it should be, with even some (admittedly individual, but still) molecular biologists supporting this nonsense on Twitter (did that dude simply sleep through his statistics class or something?).

 

[Dismember]

I can tolerate being discarded for the genitals I have

Who is “discarding” you? No one in this thread, as far as I can tell. Being female isn’t a social event and reality isn’t a mean girl excluding you from the party. It’s just biology. Being born male or female is not a personal slight. Acknowledging reality should not be construed as hate speech or however you seem to be viewing it.

 

[caveman1917]

Gender may be a spectrum, though again, that's ill defined. Certain sexual characteristics may be a spectrum. But sex itself: not a spectrum, at least not in mammals. You either have the genes that make you male, or you don't.

Technically none of this even can be a spectrum, as a spectrum is continuous (and hence uncountable) whereas there will only ever be a finite number of humans.

 

[Joe Random]

<...> And I don't give a crap if you or any other person on this board considers me delusional.

I am a biological woman, that is a fact.

Can't imagine why anyone would consider you delusional for posting the above, dude.

 

[xjx388]

I am perfectly willing to accept that a “gender” is a role in society and it is not biologically determined. Male and Female are biologically determined, however, and there’s no getting around that.

You get to determine the gender role you feel most comfortable in. You don’t get to determine which biological sex you are. I have no problem with people making up terms for genders that fit them. I don’t get what a lot of those terms are supposed to mean, but hey -it’s not affecting me at all.

Until it does. Like when demands are made for me to accept a male as a “biological woman” or vice-versa. Like when I’m supposed to accept the idea that a man can be pregnant or I’m a bigot.

There are a certain few areas of common experience where “male” and “female” matter. Bathrooms, locker rooms, sports and medicine are the big ones. Other than that I really don’t care what you do or identify as. You simply can’t expect that everyone is going to just go along with it when it affects their feelings and rights. Yours are not more important than theirs.

 

[lionking]

I am perfectly willing to accept that a “gender” is a role in society and it is not biologically determined. Male and Female are biologically determined, however, and there’s no getting around that.

You get to determine the gender role you feel most comfortable in. You don’t get to determine which biological sex you are. I have no problem with people making up terms for genders that fit them. I don’t get what a lot of those terms are supposed to mean, but hey -it’s not affecting me at all.

Until it does. Like when demands are made for me to accept a male as a “biological woman” or vice-versa. Like when I’m supposed to accept the idea that a man can be pregnant or I’m a bigot.

There are a certain few areas of common experience where “male” and “female” matter. Bathrooms, locker rooms, sports and medicine are the big ones. Other than that I really don’t care what you do or identify as. You simply can’t expect that everyone is going to just go along with it when it affects their feelings and rights. Yours are not more important than theirs.

I agree with this completely. Well said.

 

[cullennz]

I agree with this completely. Well said.

I agree but think the whole issue with these threads is it comes down to some people not understanding/ignoring/refuse to admit/try to blur/try to change the fact gender and sex are two different things

 

[LondonJohn]

I admit, my eyes crossed a couple times reading through that post, and I missed this bit the first time around.

Can one of the thread's other "transwomen are women" advocates explain what the hell we're supposed to make of this?

Archie? John? Anyone?

Because taken at face value, it really seems to put transsexuals squarely in the "I identify as an attack helicopter" camp. If this is what transsexuals really believe, then they need treatment, not accommodation.

Why are you asking anyone other than Boudicca90 to explain what she meant?

But, entirely separate from what she wrote, my own terminological understanding is that in a trans-identity context, "biology" strictly refers to birth gametes, and uses the terms "male" and "female" (or "intersex" in a very small proportion); and therefore, as a rule, transwomen are biological males (and transmen are biological females).

And the terms "woman" and "man" in a trans-identity context refer to gender identity. So a transwoman is a biological male and a gender-identity woman.

 

[LondonJohn]

Progress! Males demand to have access to all female spaces, females have no right to privacy or dignity or even safety - not if it inconveniences a male. That's definitely progress right there!


Progress! Males have all of the male sports leagues, and now they can have all of the female sports too! And if those physically smaller and weaker females aren't happy about it, oh well - they're just females, and their desires aren't nearly as important as the desires of males. They should just, you know, train harder and grow taller. Dumb stupid girls thinking that an real physical difference is worth considering. They're so bigoted. This - allowing males to take over ALL sports as long as they say the feel like "women", that's the REAL progress!


Progress! Who needs doctors? We're all perfectly capable of diagnosing ourselves, and well, if we want to be something different, we don't need stupid doctors telling us what to do. We know what's best for us. Oh, and while we're at it, we should be allowed to write ourselves our own prescriptions, and get whatever medical treatments we want, on demand! Especially if the medical industry stands in the way of males doing what they want to do. It's oppressive for doctors to act in responsible ways if it gets in the way of males getting what they want. That's real progress for you!


Progress! Kids are way more mature than we give them credit for, and they totally know what's in their interests long-term. They don't actually need to be fully cognizant of the fact that they're going to be sterile. Nope, we shoudl let kids decide that they want to become permanent patients dependent on drugs for the rest of their lives. Sure, some of those kids might have other mental health issues that are being conflated with dysphoria... but how dare psychologists and psychiatrists think that it's important to make sure that the transgender status that a kid claims might be a coping mechanism for a different issue. They should be unquestioningly supported, because kids should have complete autonomy over their bodies. While we're at it, kids are completely able to make fully informed decisions about having sex at 13, there's no need for an age of consent, there's nothing to worry about if a 40 year old is macking on a barely pubescent kid, those kids know best. Yep, letting kids do whatever they want with no questions asked ever, that's true progress right there!


Progress! Removing the rights and protections of females, forcing them by law to have to tolerate naked male-bodied people in their private spaces, putting male-bodied transwomen with penises in prison with them, and letting males count as women in leadership and political representation! Let's get those women out of social life and make sure they're exposed and vulnerable. They had their chance, and those damned biddies didn't spend nearly enough time stroking the egos of men and accommodating males desires above their own needs. It's truly progress to reduce their rights and usurp their gains!

Progress!

Progress is making sure that females go back to the kitchen, get their screechy voices out of politics, and get back to pleasing males like they ought to! Yay progress!

Bloody hell.

(And thank god that progressive governments and the world's medical/sociological experts in gender dysphoria & trans-identity don't hold the same views as yours)