Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[theprestige]

What definition of "woman" are you using? Just for clarity.

"Because I say so." The definition is always "because I say so."

 

[The Atheist]

And so this thread, after hundreds of pages of repetitive bollocks, finally reaches its peak.

Now would be an ideal time to close it. The argument - such as it ever was - is over.

 

[Ziggurat]

As a transgender woman, I am just as much of a woman as you (yes, even with a dick) and I deserve the same access and use of women's restrooms, locker rooms, shelters, prisons, opportunities, etc. as you have, with no restrictions. The genitals I have are of no interest to you or anyone else, as I am a biological woman as much as you.

You have entered Orwellian realms with this use of “biological woman”. No, you are not a biological woman at all.

I deserve to play sports with other women, both socially and professionally, and I shouldn't have to have my hormones monitored or controlled to do so.

This is entitled whining. Grow up. There are sports where it isn’t even safe for women to compete against men.

 

[theprestige]

I am a biological woman as much as you.

I admit, my eyes crossed a couple times reading through that post, and I missed this bit the first time around.

Can one of the thread's other "transwomen are women" advocates explain what the hell we're supposed to make of this?

Archie? John? Anyone?

Because taken at face value, it really seems to put transsexuals squarely in the "I identify as an attack helicopter" camp. If this is what transsexuals really believe, then they need treatment, not accommodation.

 

[Meadmaker]

Terminology check. I want to make sure I am using the modern lingo.

I think "transsexual" is still a word, and specifically refers to someone who has undergone what was once called a "sex change operation", but I have lately seen described as "gender reassignment surgery", or more recently "gender affirmation surgery". ("Gender reassignment surgery" was incorrect, because the person's gender, in modern parlance, did not change as a result of the surgery.)

A transgender person may or may not have had any medical treatment to appear more like the opposite sex.

Or what Rush Limbaugh termed, for FtoM transition, adidictomy surgery.

 

[Dismember]

In response to Emily’s Cat and anyone else who finds themselves *less* supportive of trans rights after having discussed the topic at length (including hearing from a transwoman), if you have a moment, check out this video by Magdalen Berns. It’s 11 minutes and 29 seconds and in my opinion, well worth watching in its entirety. I don’t completely agree with every single point but she definitely changed my view of feminism and I no longer support the idea of “intersectional feminism”, as the term is commonly used today.

As to the relevance to this particular thread, the discussion of trans rights and how they intersect (or don’t intersect) with the rights of biological women, there are references scattered throughout. This video is actually a response to a video made by another youtube feminist. Berns deconstructs, virtually line for line, the definition and flawed philosophy of inclusive, “neo” feminism which seems to be heavily focused on trans issues in particular (as well as a smattering of others).

Highlights:
3:29 to 6:38
7:13 to 9:27

1 Reason Everyday Feminism Is Bad For Women

Description:
In this video Magdalen Berns will present a critique of "Everyday Feminism"’s neoliberal re-branding of feminism as a "movement to end all oppression" rather than a movement for women’s liberation.

 

[Ziggurat]

In this video Magdalen Berns will present a critique of "Everyday Feminism"’s neoliberal re-branding of feminism as a "movement to end all oppression" rather than a movement for women’s liberation.

Mission creep.

 

[theprestige]

In response to Emily’s Cat and anyone else who finds themselves *less* supportive of trans rights after having discussed the topic at length (including hearing from a transwoman), if you have a moment, check out this video by Magdalen Berns. It’s 11 minutes and 29 seconds and in my opinion, well worth watching in its entirety. I don’t completely agree with every single point but she definitely changed my view of feminism and I no longer support the idea of “intersectional feminism”, as the term is commonly used today.

As to the relevance to this particular thread, the discussion of trans rights and how they intersect (or don’t intersect) with the rights of biological women, there are references scattered throughout. This video is actually a response to a video made by another youtube feminist. Berns deconstructs, virtually line for line, the definition and flawed philosophy of inclusive, “neo” feminism which seems to be heavily focused on trans issues in particular (as well as a smattering of others).

Highlights:
3:29 to 6:38
7:13 to 9:27

1 Reason Everyday Feminism Is Bad For Women

Description:
In this video Magdalen Berns will present a critique of "Everyday Feminism"’s neoliberal re-branding of feminism as a "movement to end all oppression" rather than a movement for women’s liberation.

I can't decide if her Sarcastic Stoner delivery is a feature or a bug.

ETA: I'm about halfway through the video. It seems like Magdalen is a pretty hardcore "feminism is for females and against male oppression" feminist. And yet she makes good points. So I guess we're at the point where trans activists are making TERFs and other third-wave radfems look relatively sane by comparison. They may have some weird and extreme ideas about social ills and their cures, but at least they're not claiming women are biologically identical to men.

 

[Dismember]

I can't decide if her Sarcastic Stoner delivery is a feature or a bug.

I admit, it was a distraction for the first few minutes, but after that I stopped noticing. I also had assumed it was just some variation of UK accent but now that you’ve mentioned it, “sarcastic stoner” is probably closer to the truth.

Mission creep.

If you mean the video itself, I thought it was a solid defense of Emily’s Cat’s (and now, my own) position that biological women shouldn’t have to forgo our own spaces.

As the thread was ongoing I was waffling a bit on this, but now I’m pretty confident that biological women shouldn’t be stigmatized or labeled bigots for still wanting some private spaces and wanting representation.

I don’t completely agree with every single point, but overall, she makes a solid case that exclusion is not inherently bad, and that it’s sometimes necessary and justified. (For what it’s worth, I’ve never considered myself a feminist at all and prior to finding this thread a few months ago, I would have been more on board with what I guess is now called “intersectional” feminism.)

 

[theprestige]

Well that hysterical rant

I see what you did there.

 

[Louden Wilde]

You have entered Orwellian realms with this use of “biological woman”. No, you are not a biological woman at all.

Seeing this claim (or that 'sex is a spectrum') on Twitter is how what got me diving into these issues (I'm a biologist with foci in mammalian genetics, development, epigenetics; now in clinical genetics). FWIW, it's becoming an increasingly pedestrian claim. I suspect it is a short jump from 'TWAW'.

This is entitled whining. Grow up. There are sports where it isn’t even safe for women to compete against men.

Yes, and much has been made of Fallon Fox (TW) in MMA. The other side to that is that female competitors and fans would be denied great performances if females were made to compete with males. One of the consensus best fights of the year was Zhang Weili vs. Joanna Jedrzejczyk - well worth a watch on ESPN+ . It wasn't just their grit but the high skill level both displayed. Quote from the article: Zhang vs. Jedrzejczyk was one of the greatest fights in UFC history and almost certainly the best women's fight in the promotion ever.

 

[Emily's Cat]

As a transgender woman, I am just as much of a woman as you (yes, even with a dick) and I deserve the same access and use of women's restrooms, locker rooms, shelters, prisons, opportunities, etc. as you have, with no restrictions. The genitals I have are of no interest to you or anyone else, as I am a biological woman as much as you.

Progress! Males demand to have access to all female spaces, females have no right to privacy or dignity or even safety - not if it inconveniences a male. That's definitely progress right there!

I deserve to play sports with other women, both socially and professionally, and I shouldn't have to have my hormones monitored or controlled to do so. If you have a problem with ciswomen not being able to keep up, you should advise them to train harder and not let some biological differences give them an excuse to whine about losing.

Progress! Males have all of the male sports leagues, and now they can have all of the female sports too! And if those physically smaller and weaker females aren't happy about it, oh well - they're just females, and their desires aren't nearly as important as the desires of males. They should just, you know, train harder and grow taller. Dumb stupid girls thinking that an real physical difference is worth considering. They're so bigoted. This - allowing males to take over ALL sports as long as they say the feel like "women", that's the REAL progress!

I deserve to be able to have access to hormones without having to prove to anybody that I have gender dysphoria, since you don't need dysphoria to want to transition in the first place and therefore shouldn't require documentation of dysphoria. Same for changing legal documents, it's up to me what I identify as, not what a doctor who usually has far less knowledge about transgender experiences and healthcare than I do.

Progress! Who needs doctors? We're all perfectly capable of diagnosing ourselves, and well, if we want to be something different, we don't need stupid doctors telling us what to do. We know what's best for us. Oh, and while we're at it, we should be allowed to write ourselves our own prescriptions, and get whatever medical treatments we want, on demand! Especially if the medical industry stands in the way of males doing what they want to do. It's oppressive for doctors to act in responsible ways if it gets in the way of males getting what they want. That's real progress for you!

Trans kids and teens deserve to be validated and supported with any decision they make regarding their gender identity and should receive the appropriate hormones when they approach puberty. No more hormone blockers just delaying their progress and leaving them in limbo. They should get to choose which kind of puberty they want to go through when the time comes.

Progress! Kids are way more mature than we give them credit for, and they totally know what's in their interests long-term. They don't actually need to be fully cognizant of the fact that they're going to be sterile. Nope, we shoudl let kids decide that they want to become permanent patients dependent on drugs for the rest of their lives. Sure, some of those kids might have other mental health issues that are being conflated with dysphoria... but how dare psychologists and psychiatrists think that it's important to make sure that the transgender status that a kid claims might be a coping mechanism for a different issue. They should be unquestioningly supported, because kids should have complete autonomy over their bodies. While we're at it, kids are completely able to make fully informed decisions about having sex at 13, there's no need for an age of consent, there's nothing to worry about if a 40 year old is macking on a barely pubescent kid, those kids know best. Yep, letting kids do whatever they want with no questions asked ever, that's true progress right there!

Take solace and comfort now in the few wins you've had against us lately, because the views of you and your allies will be dying out with you as we gain more acceptance in society. Especially with younger generations. You can't stop progress, you can only slow it down.

Progress! Removing the rights and protections of females, forcing them by law to have to tolerate naked male-bodied people in their private spaces, putting male-bodied transwomen with penises in prison with them, and letting males count as women in leadership and political representation! Let's get those women out of social life and make sure they're exposed and vulnerable. They had their chance, and those damned biddies didn't spend nearly enough time stroking the egos of men and accommodating males desires above their own needs. It's truly progress to reduce their rights and usurp their gains!

Progress!

Progress is making sure that females go back to the kitchen, get their screechy voices out of politics, and get back to pleasing males like they ought to! Yay progress!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Think I care about you and your primitive attitudes anymore, I don't. You will use any propaganda against us, so go ahead.

Propaganda?

Scottish transpeople have been denied the "right" to examine rape victims. To which several of them went to the internet in droves to complain that this decision - that rape victims have the right to specify the SEX of their examiner - makes them "feel unsafe".

Misgendering someone is a "literal act of violence". Not letting transwomen have their way in whatever they want is "harm". The decision of whether or not to let male-bodied, male-hormoned teenagers compete against females in sports is "a matter of life and death".

Sheesh.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yep, there it goddamn is. I've given up with putting up with you people constantly calling women like me "men" or "male bodied". Why should I give a **** about what anybody thinks about the civil rights of transgender men and women just because cispeople are uncomfortable.

I'm done trying to respect people who don't respect me.

You ARE male, biologically and genetically. You have acknowledged that you have a functional penis. You also have boobs, compliments of hormone treatment, but you are still male.

Many of the transwomen we've discussed in this thread (who aren't you because not all transwomen are you) are fully male-bodied, having not had ANY hormone or medical treatment at all.

Sex is a real thing, and it's a meaningful thing, and SEX not gender has been the basis for thousands of years of oppression and discrimination of females. Half the goddamned species.

Your policies continue that oppression. They center the desires and the feelings of males (regardless of how you identify) as more important than the needs and safety of females. Your policies usurp female progress, and set females back.

And you have the gall to insist that you're just as much of a woman in all the ways that matter. Well guess what? The things that matter to you, as a male who was raised and conditioned male, are NOT the same things that matter to me, nor to most females.

I should not have to surrender my rights so that you can feel more affirmed about your internal identity.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Because discrimination of us has been growing in the UK and they are more than willing to manipulate people for their aims. I wouldn't be surprised if someone close to him manipulated him into this. Same as the ex-gay crap, it is all politically motivated..

Ha ha ha ha ha, oh wow.

Are you seriously insisting that Keira Bell is lying and has been manipulated, and that she is actually a man? She identifies as a woman. Isn't that identification all that matters? Why the hell do you think it's okay to misgender her?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

Boudicca has previously indicated that she fancies men, so I doubt she's given it much thought really.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you mean the video itself

No. I mean that making feminism about fighting all forms of oppression is a form of mission creep.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_creep

 

[theprestige]

Boudicca has previously indicated that she fancies men, so I doubt she's given it much thought really.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

 

[Puppycow]

I admit, my eyes crossed a couple times reading through that post, and I missed this bit the first time around.

Can one of the thread's other "transwomen are women" advocates explain what the hell we're supposed to make of this?

Archie? John? Anyone?

Because taken at face value, it really seems to put transsexuals squarely in the "I identify as an attack helicopter" camp. If this is what transsexuals really believe, then they need treatment, not accommodation.

The word "biological woman" seems to be just as much up for grabs as "woman" because as a modifier "biological" adds no extra information. We are all animals, and all animals are biological. A non-biological woman would be a gynoid like in Ex Machina. I.e. An artificial woman.

So basically all I'm saying is that "biological" is a meaningless modifier unless you are making a distinction between a person and a robot.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you mean the video itself, I thought it was a solid defense of Emily’s Cat’s (and now, my own) position that biological women shouldn’t have to forgo our own spaces.

As the thread was ongoing I was waffling a bit on this, but now I’m pretty confident that biological women shouldn’t be stigmatized or labeled bigots for still wanting some private spaces and wanting representation.

I don’t completely agree with every single point, but overall, she makes a solid case that exclusion is not inherently bad, and that it’s sometimes necessary and justified. (For what it’s worth, I’ve never considered myself a feminist at all and prior to finding this thread a few months ago, I would have been more on board with what I guess is now called “intersectional” feminism.)

For what it's worth, I have only begun thinking about myself s a feminist within the last five years... and I'm now 46, so it was a long while coming. Even then, I'd pretty much say I was a "everyone should be equal so stop treating me like I'm lesser" feminist with no thought beyond that up until this thread.

I started out generally supportive of transrights, until I got more exposed and started seeing what was being asked for. And to be fair, I'm not even completely sold on all of my points. There are places I'm willing to compromise... but the more I end up being harassed and attacked for the gall of simply standing up for the rights of females to be equal beings, the less I care about the feelings of this newest crop of self-entitled, aggressive, and downright masculine transwomen.

Plus, sometimes I simply run out of patience with having to try to be conciliatory and accommodating, just because I'm female. It's a dumb social role, so **** that noise.