Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[TurkeysGhost]

It seems worth pointing out that the purpose of athletics varies. In this context, we're discussing school athletics, specifically high school sports.

School sports exist, ostensibly, for the educational benefit of the students. Athletic excellence are not the only goals. High school sports are not comparable to professional athletics in this way.

 

[Manger Douse]

It seems worth pointing out that the purpose of athletics varies. In this context, we're discussing school athletics, specifically high school sports.

School sports exist, ostensibly, for the educational benefit of the students. Athletic excellence are not the only goals. High school sports are not comparable to professional athletics in this way.

Where do most athletes start their careers?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Where do most athletes start their careers?

In school.

Being a farm system for professional athletics is not the mission of school athletics. Only a tiny fraction of student athletes have any intention or chance of becoming pros, and this is besides the point for most.

Much effort is put into organizing high school sports to be inclusive.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm going to attempt to take this question seriously.


If one male is far enough above the other male competitors that the result is a foregone conclusion even before the match starts, people still enjoy watching the match in order to see such a talented athlete perform

If one female is far enough above the other female competitors that the result is a foregone conclusion even before the match starts, people still enjoy watching the match in order to see such a talented athlete perform.

If one female has a remote chance of winning against a group of male competitors, people absolutely love watching the match, because the woman is obviously a whole new level of awesome.

If one male is far enough above a group of female competitors that the result is a foregone conclusion, people wonder why they are bothering to watch, because of course the male is going to win. Duh. And he, or she, if the person uses feminie pronouns, is not even putting in an impressive performance. Boring.


ETA: The above describes the case for spectator sports. It would be worded differently for student competitions that are not primarily aimed at providing entertainment, but it's basically the same thing.

So why does a cis woman like Caster Semenya invalidate any of this? If having her compete "ruins" everyone's entertainment in some way that people are not "ruined" by Michael Phelps why is that?

And we have nicely gotten rid of the whole idea of fair competition right away I see. Good goalpost movement there.

 

[Manger Douse]

In school.

Being a farm system for professional athletics is not the mission of school athletics. Only a tiny fraction of student athletes have any intention or chance of becoming pros, and this is besides the point for most.

Ok, so how would being soundly beaten at least nine times out of ten during these periods effect the confidence and academic success of these young girls do you think?

 

[Ron Obvious]

So why does a cis woman like Caster Semenya invalidate any of this? If having her compete "ruins" everyone's entertainment in some way that people are not "ruined" by Michael Phelps why is that?

Shows you how little you know about this issue. Caster Semenya has XY (i.e. male) chromosomes and is intersex, merely "assigned female at birth".

 

[Meadmaker]

So why does a cis woman like Caster Semenya invalidate any of this? If having her compete "ruins" everyone's entertainment in some way that people are not "ruined" by Michael Phelps why is that?

See paragraphs 1 and 4 from my response.

And we have nicely gotten rid of the whole idea of fair competition right away I see. Good goalpost movement there.

I never said anything about fairness. If there's a goalpost that has been moved, it's yours, not mine. I don't have a "fair" goalpost.

I think far too much is made out of "fair".

 

[theprestige]

"Of course you lost to Bob, Alice. You're a girl. But you lost by less of a margin than most girls lose, and you even did better than a couple of the weaker boys. So you should feel a really rewarding and confidence-boosting sense of accomplishment here. Aren't you glad your parents enrolled you in such a progressive school?"

 

[ponderingturtle]

See paragraphs 1 and 4 from my response.

Except that makes no sense with Caster Semenya not being male and never having been assigned male at any point in her life. Clearly paragraph 2 applies.

And it means that pro wrestling is the best sport there is. Who cares if the results are predetermined as long as everyone watching enjoys the spectacle?

 

[Manger Douse]

"Of course you lost to Bob, Alice. You're a girl.. But you lost by less of a margin than most girls lose, and you even did better than a couple of the weaker boys. So you should feel a really rewarding and confidence-boosting sense of accomplishment here. Aren't you glad your parents enrolled you in such a progressive school?"

The real reason why men hold all the records is because the girls just don't try hard enough

 

[Meadmaker]

It seems worth pointing out that the purpose of athletics varies. In this context, we're discussing school athletics, specifically high school sports.

School sports exist, ostensibly, for the educational benefit of the students. Athletic excellence are not the only goals. High school sports are not comparable to professional athletics in this way.

It's not worth very much to point that out. It falls under my ETA:

ETA: The above describes the case for spectator sports. It would be worded differently for student competitions that are not primarily aimed at providing entertainment, but it's basically the same thing.

So, just in case people don't understand, let's go through the exercise.

In order for a male to beat all the other males in an athletic competition, he must use all of his natural talent, but must also hone his skills through hard work to make the most of it. That sort of effort is one that we encourage and reward, because it will serve people well in life.

In order for a female to beat all the other females in an athletic competition, she must use all of her natural talent, but must also hone her skills through hard work to make the most of it. That sort of effort is one that we encourage and reward, because it will serve people well in life.

In order for a female to beat all the males in an athletic competition, she must use all of her natural talent, but must also hone her skills through incredibly difficult work, and to never be satisfied with a goal such as beating all the other girls, but continues to strive to go on far beyond the point where she would be praised, and totally strive to be the best she can possibly be. That sort of effort is one that we encourage and reward, because it will serve people well in life, and be an inspiration to those who observe.

In order for a male to beat all the females in an athletic competition, he can't sit on the couch playing video games all day. Who cares?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It's not worth very much to point that out. It falls under my ETA:



So, just in case people don't understand, let's go through the exercise.

In order for a male to beat all the other males in an athletic competition, he must use all of his natural talent, but must also hone his skills through hard work to make the most of it. That sort of effort is one that we encourage and reward, because it will serve people well in life.

In order for a female to beat all the other females in an athletic competition, she must use all of her natural talent, but must also hone her skills through hard work to make the most of it. That sort of effort is one that we encourage and reward, because it will serve people well in life.

In order for a female to beat all the males in an athletic competition, she must use all of her natural talent, but must also hone her skills through incredibly difficult work, and to never be satisfied with a goal such as beating all the other girls, but continues to strive to go on far beyond the point where she would be praised, and totally strive to be the best she can possibly be. That sort of effort is one that we encourage and reward, because it will serve people well in life, and be an inspiration to those who observe.

In order for a male to beat all the females in an athletic competition, he can't sit on the couch playing video games all day. Who cares?

My comment wasn't meant in retort to whatever it is being discussed here. The last couple pages strike me as especially tedious. I was attempting to steer things back towards the topic of excluding trans students from sport.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's not worth very much to point that out. It falls under my ETA:



So, just in case people don't understand, let's go through the exercise.

In order for a male to beat all the other males in an athletic competition, he must use all of his natural talent, but must also hone his skills through hard work to make the most of it. That sort of effort is one that we encourage and reward, because it will serve people well in life.

In order for a female to beat all the other females in an athletic competition, she must use all of her natural talent, but must also hone her skills through hard work to make the most of it. That sort of effort is one that we encourage and reward, because it will serve people well in life.

In order for a female to beat all the males in an athletic competition, she must use all of her natural talent, but must also hone her skills through incredibly difficult work, and to never be satisfied with a goal such as beating all the other girls, but continues to strive to go on far beyond the point where she would be praised, and totally strive to be the best she can possibly be. That sort of effort is one that we encourage and reward, because it will serve people well in life, and be an inspiration to those who observe.

In order for a male to beat all the females in an athletic competition, he can't sit on the couch playing video games all day. Who cares?

And women who are not sufficiently attractive of course count as men I mean who wants to what the Uggo's compete no matter how much effort they put into it?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm going to attempt to take this question seriously.


If one male is far enough above the other male competitors that the result is a foregone conclusion even before the match starts, people still enjoy watching the match in order to see such a talented athlete perform

If one female is far enough above the other female competitors that the result is a foregone conclusion even before the match starts, people still enjoy watching the match in order to see such a talented athlete perform.

If one female has a remote chance of winning against a group of male competitors, people absolutely love watching the match, because the woman is obviously a whole new level of awesome.

If one male is far enough above a group of female competitors that the result is a foregone conclusion, people wonder why they are bothering to watch, because of course the male is going to win. Duh. And he, or she, if the person uses feminie pronouns, is not even putting in an impressive performance. Boring.


ETA: The above describes the case for spectator sports. It would be worded differently for student competitions that are not primarily aimed at providing entertainment, but it's basically the same thing.

Putting aside the fact that you are speculating here, in your view, should 'what people want to see' be the only consideration?

Is it OK to discriminate for purely commercial reasons?

if so, would there be any limitations to this? If 'people don't want to eat next to black folks' would it be OK for a restaurant to discriminate against them?

 

[Meadmaker]

My comment wasn't meant in retort to whatever it is being discussed here. The last couple pages strike me as especially tedious. I was attempting to steer things back towards the topic of excluding trans students from sport.

So was mine.

Trans girls should be excluded from female sports because their presence destroys the purpose of the sport, whether that purpose be entertainment or education.



(And, as with all broad statements, that does not mean every transgirl in every sporting situation. It's true primarily for competitive sports where the participants and/or spectators actually care who wins, and where the winners receive a reward, whether that reward be financial, or merely public acclaim.
People who run the various leagues where the decision has to be made can make the decision for their league.)

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That this argument is not certain to win the day is troubling in and of itself. That you are OK with that possibility is also worrisome.

Troubling and worrisome that discrimination being OK is not the default assumption? What exactly is it that troubles and worries you?

Is this a general rule with you? If I go to a female doctor and want to be checked for testicular cancer should she be allowed to say 'no way, I'm not dealing with balls'? Or is there something specific about waxing that makes it special?

 

[Meadmaker]

And, to repeat something I have said many times in these threads, show me a group of people who are adamant that transgirls should be included in female sports, and I will show you a group of people who think sports are stupid or, at the very least, overrated.

People who actually care about sports don't want transfemales competing against biological females.

 

[Meadmaker]

And, to repeat something I have said many times in these threads, show me a group of people who are adamant that transgirls should be included in female sports, and I will show you a group of people who think sports are stupid or, at the very least, overrated.

People who actually care about sports don't want transfemales competing against biological females.

 

[Manger Douse]

Troubling and worrisome that discrimination being OK is not the default assumption? What exactly is it that troubles and worries you?

Is this a general rule with you? If I go to a female doctor and want to be checked for testicular cancer should she be allowed to say 'no way, I'm not dealing with balls'? Or is there something specific about waxing that makes it special?

Do ball waxers take something similar to the Hippocratic Oath then?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So was mine.

Trans girls should be excluded from female sports because their presence destroys the purpose of the sport, whether that purpose be entertainment or education.

They really don't. But even if they do then shouldn't it be incumbent on people to demonstrate that their presence destroys the purpose of the sport in order to exclude them rather than just assume it a priori?

If we change your statement by just a tiny amount we might even have broad agreement?

Trans girls should be excluded from female sports IF their presence destroys the purpose of the sport, whether that purpose be entertainment or education.