Cont: Trump et al continued “2020 election” conspiracy theories

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Fast Eddie B said:
His niece, Mary, thinks he very well might make a final trip to a foreign country near the end of his term.

A one-way trip. To a country with no extradition treaty with the US. And there’s nothing that could be done to stop him.
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It would seem that the addendum, "...but running away is fine!" kind of contradicts the "Never give up!" part.
 
Horatius said:
The problem with Trump playing the "Never give up, never surrender" card is, if you really do intend to "never surrender", you must be willing to die in place, if winning becomes impossible.

And Trump is too much of a coward to ever do that. He'd be okay with a bunch of other people dying in place, but the minute his own ass is on the line, he'll start shouting "I surrender! I surrender!" faster than an auctioneer on speed.
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You see, it is easy to show your bravado when you are at your peak, and when you fall, it is already more difficult to show how cool, invincible you are, you know everything and can do everything. And when you are replaced by someone else, when you are losing ground, it is harder to prove that you are right.
 
Horatius said:
The problem with Trump playing the "Never give up, never surrender" card is, if you really do intend to "never surrender", you must be willing to die in place, if winning becomes impossible.
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I just watched Downfall, a German film about the last days of Hitler in his bunker as the Russians clobbered Berlin. Hitler preferred to commit suicide rather than surrender, which was certainly cowardly. Trump will just always pretend he never lost, which is arguably worse.
 
Horatius said:
It would seem that the addendum, "...but running away is fine!" kind of contradicts the "Never give up!" part.
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You write that as if consistency was ever a consideration for Trump.

I think I posted his decision tree recently:

IF x is good for Donald Trump, THEN x, ELSE not x.

No reason to think he’ll be considering consistency - or anything else - when deciding whether or not to emigrate.
 
eerok said:
I just watched Downfall, a German film about the last days of Hitler in his bunker as the Russians clobbered Berlin. Hitler preferred to commit suicide rather than surrender, which was certainly cowardly. Trump will just always pretend he never lost, which is arguably worse.
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Since this whole debacle began I've been hoping that someone with sufficient influence would metaphorically guide Trump to the traditional small room with a bottle of whisky and a service revolver. But he's surrounded by enablers who are as cynical and/or deranged as he is.
 
eerok said:
I just watched Downfall, a German film about the last days of Hitler in his bunker as the Russians clobbered Berlin. Hitler preferred to commit suicide rather than surrender, which was certainly cowardly. Trump will just always pretend he never lost, which is arguably worse.
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Off topic a bit but: I don't agree it was cowardice for Hitler to commit suicide. His world was broken. In many cultures, suicide is a honorable way out of defeat. And, I mean, he would surely have been hanged by thy allies, had he surrendered alive. It takes some courage to take maters in your own hands.

... Which is exactly why I can't imagine Donald Trump doing it. He will take the Black Night route.

...Unless he suddenly finds it in his interest to accept defeat, in which case he won't give a thought to the people who tried to join him in his last stand.


Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Off topic a bit but: I don't agree it was cowardice for Hitler to commit suicide. His world was broken. In many cultures, suicide is a honorable way out of defeat. And, I mean, he would surely have been hanged by thy allies, had he surrendered alive. It takes some courage to take maters in your own hands.
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Is it honorable to commit suicide in German military culture? Certainly many Nazis took that option in 1945. It seems cowardly to me, for whatever that's worth.

MRC_Hans said:
... Which is exactly why I can't imagine Donald Trump doing it. He will take the Black Night route.

...Unless he suddenly finds it in his interest to accept defeat, in which case he won't give a thought to the people who tried to join him in his last stand.
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I think Trump's cowardice is not as questionable as Hitler's. Definitely Trump will follow his nature and keep lying and denying. It's the only way he can imagine he's not a loser.
 
trump has shown in the past if he doesn't need someone, or they won't play by newly revised rules they go under the bus.
If he can sell out his toadies to save himself bet your last cent on what he would do.

It's coming down to unveiled threats already and no court nor state government has folded to pressure yet.
Hope holds strong for the correct outcome.
 
eerok said:
Is it honorable to commit suicide in German military culture? Certainly many Nazis took that option in 1945. It seems cowardly to me, for whatever that's worth.



I think Trump's cowardice is not as questionable as Hitler's. Definitely Trump will follow his nature and keep lying and denying. It's the only way he can imagine he's not a loser.
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It was Hitler's Götterdämmerung. He saw the war as only having two possible outcomes, the complete destruction of the Soviet Union or the complete destruction of Germany. Hitler's suicide was, I think in his mind and seeing his and Germany's fates being linked the final destruction of Germany.

This is also Trump's Götterdämmerung only this time Brünnhilde isn't riding into the flames, she's flying to South Florida after burning down Valhalla.
 
eerok said:
Is it honorable to commit suicide in German military culture? Certainly many Nazis took that option in 1945. It seems cowardly to me, for whatever that's worth.
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I think that's our culture's judgement on their culture. In both European and American thought there is an idea that it is better to die than to surrender, but in American sources, it only counts if you go down fighting.

This is not a blanket statement meant to cover every aspect of American tradition, but I think it's a general attitude. Patton's suggestion of "Don't die for your country. Make the other son of a bitch die for his country." has a very American ring to it.
 
eerok said:
Is it honorable to commit suicide in German military culture? Certainly many Nazis took that option in 1945. It seems cowardly to me, for whatever that's worth.
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Well, not as explicitly as in Japanese culture, but ... yes, in the context of fighting to death.

I think Trump's cowardice is not as questionable as Hitler's. Definitely Trump will follow his nature and keep lying and denying. It's the only way he can imagine he's not a loser.
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I agree, and not only that. He will do whatever he thinks serves him.

Hans
 
Craig4 said:
It was Hitler's Götterdämmerung. He saw the war as only having two possible outcomes, the complete destruction of the Soviet Union or the complete destruction of Germany. Hitler's suicide was, I think in his mind and seeing his and Germany's fates being linked the final destruction of Germany.

This is also Trump's Götterdämmerung only this time Brünnhilde isn't riding into the flames, she's flying to South Florida after burning down Valhalla.
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According to the film, Hitler had a strange contempt for the German people. He thought that if they weren't strong enough to win, they had no right to survive. There's a parallel with Trump -- if the American people aren't stupid enough to set aside their self-interest and swallow his BS, then they don't deserve to survive either.

Yeah, I didn't really intend to Godwin this thread, but here we are.
 
eerok said:
Is it honorable to commit suicide in German military culture? Certainly many Nazis took that option in 1945. It seems cowardly to me, for whatever that's worth.
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I remember a scene from a movie that my parents were watching when I was a kid. Hitler promoted an officer he didn't particularly like to General shortly before a battle that he commanded and lost. The General surrendered and was taken prisoner, and when Hitler learned this, he went on a rant about how he had specifically promoted the man so that he would commit suicide when defeated, and he couldn't even do that right.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
His niece, Mary, thinks he very well might make a final trip to a foreign country near the end of his term.

A one-way trip. To a country with no extradition treaty with the US. And there’s nothing that could be done to stop him.
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That's sort of fine. And when he goes, revoke his passport and/or citizenship. Then he is out forever, and also may not run for US president ever again no matter what he blusters about 2024.
 
Armitage72 said:
I remember a scene from a movie that my parents were watching when I was a kid. Hitler promoted an officer he didn't particularly like to General shortly before a battle that he commanded and lost. The General surrendered and was taken prisoner, and when Hitler learned this, he went on a rant about how he had specifically promoted the man so that he would commit suicide when defeated, and he couldn't even do that right.
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Paulus, at Stalingrad. Made into Field Marshal at the last moment. Since no German Field Marshal has ever been captured alive the message was clear. But Paulus surrendered himself and his Army.
 
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