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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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d4m10n said:
I think what the tweet in question was getting at was that the Iranian regime actively pressures lesbians and gays to become trans instead. It's a silly and facile comparison, unless there is some evidence that well known lesbians face such pressures in the free nations of the west.
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It's of course difficult to gauge the reality of how much pressure, but there are definitely lesbians who feel that way (that lesbians have been the major target of homophobia from Trans-rights activists)
examples:

https://lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/

https://twitter.com/ALLIANCELGB
 
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d4m10n said:
First and foremost, it seems intended as an analogy.
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You're almost as bad as Bob.

What kind of analogy? An extremely unflattering one, wouldn't you agree?

Most would consider analogies to a system of government that executes gay people for being gay as unflattering. Insulting even.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Most would consider analogies to a system of government that executes gay people for being gay as unflattering. Insulting even.
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If insult is all you're trying to see, it's all you're going to see.

SuburbanTurkey said:
What kind of analogy? An extremely unflattering one, wouldn't you agree?
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Yes, but the point may have been to persuade rather than merely insult.

By way of analogy to another analogy, a few years back I compared the Trump campaign to earlier proto-fascists using a point-by-point checklist approach. The idea wasn't to merely insult or dismiss Trump supporters, but rather to get persuadable readers to realize how much danger the world's oldest constitutional republic was sleepwalking into at the time.

When someone makes a comparison to an evil regime, you can dismiss it as mere insult or you can take them seriously enough to ask whether the analogy actually works or not.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
It becomes a question of prominence and representation of a wider community. For any given fringe idea, one can find a twitter moron that is willing to advocate it. Nutpicking isn't a useful exercise.

There's a big difference between some Twitter nobody saying something and prominent thinkers of a movement saying something.

It's pretty clear what the reactionary right feels about trans issues, there's no shortage of articles in all the popular right wing outlets insisting that trans people are attention seeking, mentally ill, and/or perverts....

I have to admit that I'm not as familiar with who's who in the TERF world or what counts as a significant voice for them. It's a fringe view with a small, vocal following that I admit I don't really follow that closely. The UK seems to be a stronghold for transphobes and I'm also not too familiar with UK press or academic circles.

Who would you recommend as being more representative of the TERF viewpoint? I'm honestly open to suggestion here.
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Some individuals I've checked out (in addition to the orgs others have posted):
https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles ( Emma Hilton - developmental biologist - concerned with female rights)
https://twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/with_replies (Lesbian activist)
https://twitter.com/lascapigliata8/with_replies (retired ? physician- women's rights)
https://twitter.com/HiboWardere/with_replies (anti-female genital mutilation activist)


A few notes: some of these folks - Emma among them- consider TERF a slur. So if you want a discussion (with her at least), don't use that term. I note that there seem to be some significant differences between the UK and US. Your point is well-taken about the right in the US, but my impression is that this group (transphobic right) does seem as strong in the UK (nor does there seem to be such an religious component to the UK right ). Certainly the major UK feminists I've read/followed are not considered right-wing.

My impression is that 'self-ID' is a bigger deal there in terms of laws potentially impacting sex-based rights. The larger point being that the UK is a different place and posts based on things going on there (or by people from there) should be considered in that light.

I cringe when I see folks from the US right weighing in - typically not in 'good faith' - (i.e. not interested in a discussion). But trans-activists immediately shutting down people (mostly females) in the US who bring up the issues of sex-based rights is not helpful to discussion either - nor is just dismissing them as 'right-wing'.
 
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Louden Wilde said:
Some individuals I've checked out (in addition to the orgs others have posted):
https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles ( Emma Hilton - developmental biologist - concerned with female rights)
https://twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/with_replies (Lesbian activist)
https://twitter.com/lascapigliata8/with_replies (retired ? physician- women's rights)
https://twitter.com/HiboWardere/with_replies (anti-female genital mutilation activist)


A few notes: some of these folks - Emma among them- consider TERF a slur. So if you want a discussion (with her at least), don't use that term. I note that there seem to be some significant differences between the UK and US. Your point is well-taken about the right in the US, but my impression is that this group (transphobic right) does seem as strong in the UK (nor does there seem to be such an religious component to the UK right ). Certainly the major UK feminists I've read/followed are not considered right-wing.

My impression is that 'self-ID' is a bigger deal there in terms of laws potentially impacting sex-based rights. The larger point being that the UK is a different place and posts based on things going on there (or by people from there) should be considered in that light.

I cringe when I see folks from the US right weighing in - typically not in 'good faith' - (i.e. not interested in a discussion). But trans-activists immediately shutting down people (mostly females) in the US who bring up the issues of sex-based rights is not helpful to discussion either - nor is just dismissing them as 'right-wing'.
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Yes, I am aware that TERFs don't like be called thus, and there has been conversation on this thread somewhere way back on this topic. Suffice to say that I reject the notion that it is inherently an insult, but is actually a useful descriptor of the niche variety of transphobia that is rooted in a bastardization of feminist ideology. A TERF by any other name smells just as rotten, and it is sometimes useful to distinguish their brand of bigotry from others.

It's a useful term because TERFs are very much so not right wingers. On pretty much every other issue but trans-denialism, they are in opposition to reactionary right politics. It's just interesting to point out that on the issues of denying the legitimacy of trans people and criminalizing trans-affirming medical care, they happen to find themselves in alignment reactionary right elements that otherwise they would not have any common cause with. Occasionally TERFs champion the causes of explicitly bigoted anti-LGBT groups if the target is solely on a trans person. TERFs are not right wingers, but they sure do seem overlap on this specific issue.

I'm sure that UK TERFs don't enjoy their experience in international venues, as the particular strain of UK based trans-denialism seems to have a much less warm reception overseas, especially in countries that are codifying trans rights into law.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
No, but I imagine most of these orgs would not be amenable to complaints that someone coming out as gay as a loss for the straight community or a sign of barbarity. I trust you understand that the invocation of Iran is meant to be derogatory. Do you disagree?

It's quite clear from these complaints that they see trans identity as illegitimate, which is not at all surprising given they are trans exclusionists.
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Do you understand why the invocation of Iran is being made? Are you aware of the pressure being placed on current lesbians, as well as teenage lesbians, to identify as trans rather than lesbian? Are you aware of the discontent and anger among lesbians at being berated and harassed because they don't want to have a lesbian transwoman's female penis inside of their vaginas?

Now... I doubt this is the case with Page. I don't know anything about her personal life.

But the broader complaint isn't without merit, even if misplaced in this case.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Interesting, that does clarify this insult quite a bit.

You do understand that this is meant as an insult, right? I mean, comparing someone transitioning of their own free will to gay people who do so in fear of being put to death is not meant to be flattering.
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No, it's not meant to be flattering. And it's a bit of hyperbole. But it's also not completely wrong. There is a fair bit of pressure on lesbian women - especially butch lesbians - to identify as transmen instead of as cis-lesbians. There's also a fair bit of pressure on cis-lesbians to accept physically intact transwomen who identify as lesbian as sex partners. There's even pressure on lesbians to not refer to themselves as 'lesbians' because it's exclusionary, and instead refer to themselves as 'queer'... because 'lesbian' implies that they discriminate on the basis of genitalia. :rolleyes:
 
There may be some hope for the SNP yet. Ordinary members registered to vote in the party's internal elections seem to have wised up to the issues in time, probably helped by an extraordinarily intemperate (and indeed defamatory) letter that was published signed by a bunch of the more insane trans activists connected to the party (and another bunch of people who are now backtracking madly or saying their signatures were appended without their knowledge) and served as a wake-up call to many people who simply hadn't believed it was actually possible that what they were being told about was actually happening.

When you get a bunch of woke infants weeping all over Twitter about a "TERF landslide" and someone actually starting a petition to get the party to remove the newly-elected Women's Convener, you know it's a good day for sanity.
 
Rolfe said:
There may be some hope for the SNP yet. Ordinary members registered to vote in the party's internal elections seem to have wised up to the issues in time, probably helped by an extraordinarily intemperate (and indeed defamatory) letter that was published signed by a bunch of the more insane trans activists connected to the party (and another bunch of people who are now backtracking madly or saying their signatures were appended without their knowledge) and served as a wake-up call to many people who simply hadn't believed it was actually possible that what they were being told about was actually happening.

When you get a bunch of woke infants weeping all over Twitter about a "TERF landslide" and someone actually starting a petition to get the party to remove the newly-elected Women's Convener, you know it's a good day for sanity.
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Link please?
 
Would find it more likely other lesbians are moaning about losing a lesbian, rather than your rapidly growing in number, any one who disagrees with you "let's label them TERFs! Where are our pitchforks!" lot.



Forgive me my atrocious spelling from my wee phone keyboard.
 
Trying to imagine how this means anything to the world at large, but keep running up against that hard stop barrier. Let's just let 'man' and 'woman' mean anything we feel like anymore, so they're littlie more than the linguistic equivalent of a wildcard. Stop denying my <*> identity.

https://youtu.be/WOSjOju7g1g?t=30
 
Ziggurat said:
Are they? What are the criteria for evaluating that?
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A bit too complicated to explain in detail here. It does involve following a child over a long term though.

How do we know those criteria are good?
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The fact that the vast majority go on to a full sex reassignment proves that they have been identified as trans successfully.

That's where you're wrong, plenty of people claimed exactly that. In fact, the NHS in the UK used to say that on their website, although that's thankfully now changed. You can still find other sources making exactly that claim, though. For example:
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Information toward patients often simplifies things quite a bit.

Aber said:
The UK court judgement this week (quoted up thread) fairly shredded that line of argument.
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This court makes a really weird argument that the success in identifying children as trans somehow invalidates their treatment. Obviously most of the kids who are prescribed puberty blockers in their treatment of gender dysphoria go on to take cross sex hormones; the children who go will go for a sex change is what the treament is for.

Emily's Cat said:
Have you been keeping up with what's going on at the Tavistock Clinic at all?
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Not reallly no. I am however familiar with the protocols used for treating transgender children, which were first developed in the Netherlands. Do you have evidence that the Tavistock Clinic is not following those protocols? The court judgement doesn't show that evidence, as it claims that the vast majority of children getting puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones later, which is exactly what you'd expect if their gender identity is identified successfully.
 
Earthborn said:
The fact that the vast majority go on to a full sex reassignment proves that they have been identified as trans successfully.
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No, it doesn't prove that. That's one possibility, but another possibility which hasn't been excluded is that puberty blockers reinforce trans inclinations which might otherwise fade by going through normal puberty.
 
Earthborn said:
A bit too complicated to explain in detail here. It does involve following a child over a long term though.
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The court did not find Keira Bell's claim to have been put on puberty blockers after only 3 one-hour appointments to have been false. If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to share.
 
Ziggurat said:
No, it doesn't prove that. That's one possibility, but another possibility which hasn't been excluded is that puberty blockers reinforce trans inclinations which might otherwise fade by going through normal puberty.
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I think there was some data somewhere back in these threads that found that the significant majority of children expressing signs of gender dysphoria (having a preference to play with the toys typically associated with the other sex, etc) without intervention grow up to be homosexual.
 
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