2020 United States presidential election - Conspiracy theories, alleged fraud, etc

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Are these guys speaking from an official stance or just saying what could happen?

How long before we would hear something certain?
Dunno.

If it happens at all, I suspect it could take a long time to reach a conclusion. Not being aware of the American Bar Association ethics and procedures but expecting they take a dim view of this sort of thing, I suspect he may have to "stand aside" while any ethics case against him is processed.

If he has broken the law, things might happen faster. Federal officers or FBI involvement? An arrest is imminent? Maybe Trump could (try to) pardon him. ;)

Can our legal eagles weigh in on this?
 
.... That's pretty serious, but I tried to google something about it, and I guess my Google Fu isn't very good, because I wanted to know more detail. Can you help me out? I've heard the statement, but I'm looking for the data to back it up. What can you do for me? ...
This was from a non-sworn-in caller to the Gettysburg hotel meeting they were trying to pass off as a state senate hearing.

There is no data to back it up and if it were true the courts would not have thrown the PA case(s) out which necessitated the faux PA senate hearing. The Keystone Lawyers couldn't get any traction out of these false claims they put in front of a judge so they did the next best thing, they pretended to hold a hearing and pretended to present real evidence.

Here's Fox's coverage of the supposed event and you tell me if the story has any cred.

Pa. poll watcher, a Navy vet, alleges missing USB cards, up to 120,000 questionable votes
A U.S. Navy veteran and data scientist from Pennsylvania alleged this week that 47 USB cards used during the state’s Nov. 3 election have gone missing – and asserted that as many as 120,000 votes cast in the election should be called into question.

At a hearing in Gettysburg on Wednesday, poll watcher Gregory Stenstrom of Delaware County identified himself a former commanding officer in the Navy and a forensic computer scientist with expertise on security and fraud issues.

“I personally observed USB cards being uploaded to voting machines by the voting machine warehouse supervisor on multiple occasions,” Stenstrom testified. “This person is not being observed, he's not a part of the process that I can see, and he is walking in with baggies of USBs.”
Notice they call it a "hearing" instead of a meeting.
“I literally begged multiple law enforcement agencies to go get the forensic evidence from the computers. It's a simple process. It wouldn't have taken more than an hour to image all 5 machines. That was never done despite my objections and that was three weeks ago.”

So you're uploading fraudulent data and you carry USBs in baggies? And plug them in in front of 'poll watchers'?

Two pages of searches and not a single one is mainstream news coverage.
 
Dunno.

If it happens at all, I suspect it could take a long time to reach a conclusion. Not being aware of the American Bar Association ethics and procedures but expecting they take a dim view of this sort of thing, I suspect he may have to "stand aside" while any ethics case against him is processed.

If he has broken the law, things might happen faster. Federal officers or FBI involvement? An arrest is imminent? Maybe Trump could (try to) pardon him. ;)
Can our legal eagles weigh in on this?
Maybe not as far fetched as you think.

CNN: Trump associates, including Giuliani, are asking for pardons
President Donald Trump's associates are making appeals to him in the hopes of obtaining pardons before he leaves office, a source familiar with the matter told CNN on Tuesday.

The source said the list of associates broaching the subject of preemptive pardons that would seek to shield those individuals from prosecution includes Rudy Giuliani, who has been leading the President's long-shot legal battles to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election in his role as Trump's personal attorney.

Since the election, Trump has been discussing with advisers preemptively pardoning several people close to him, including his children, son-in-law and Giuliani, a separate source familiar confirmed to CNN. The potential pardon list includes others who are close to the President and could be legally vulnerable but have not been charged.
 
This was from a non-sworn-in caller to the Gettysburg hotel meeting they were trying to pass off as a state senate hearing.

There is no data to back it up and if it were true the courts would not have thrown the PA case(s) out which necessitated the faux PA senate hearing. The Keystone Lawyers couldn't get any traction out of these false claims they put in front of a judge so they did the next best thing, they pretended to hold a hearing and pretended to present real evidence.

Here's Fox's coverage of the supposed event and you tell me if the story has any cred.

Pa. poll watcher, a Navy vet, alleges missing USB cards, up to 120,000 questionable votes
Notice they call it a "hearing" instead of a meeting.


So you're uploading fraudulent data and you carry USBs in baggies? And plug them in in front of 'poll watchers'?

Two pages of searches and not a single one is mainstream news coverage.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that method (insertion of USB) how the outlying polling station voting data gets officially entered into the vote-counting system? If so, I would expect there will be a whole swathe of verification algorithms go across all that data before they even get considered to be counted. Then they will be checked again. Then re-checked by other sets of eyes. And confirmed against a whole series of voter databases, etc. That is, due diligence. So any fake or duplicate or other malicious data is going to be rapidly filtered out and flagged. And yet this didn't happen at any step along the way. With him, the experts data guy, sitting watching.

This guy, who claims and advertises he is a big data expert, seems to be claiming that just because a USB of "something" is inserted in a PC within view at a vote-counting station that vote-rigging is definitely the only possible thing that is happening as a result. If he thought it was suspect, did he raise an alarm? he says he complained...did that go anywhere? Any record of that complaint?

It's about as realistic as turning on the faucet of a garden hose, and when water comes out calling it sorcery.
 
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just to get up to speed, so far Trump has collected $170M in donations to fight election fraud. so far his legal strategy has been to lose nearly every court case and overturn no votes. hold press conferences in parking lots and with men leaking shoe polish from the sides of their bald heads insisting they have proof but forgot it in their other pants. fire his other lead lawyer claiming the proof is days away, days before the elections are certified. do nothing and wait until after the elections have all been certified. accuse his political opponents, the DOJ, FBI, his close allies, and his own appointed staff of being in on the fraud.

i mean, money well spent
 
just to get up to speed, so far Trump has collected $170M in donations to fight election fraud. so far his legal strategy has been to lose nearly every court case and overturn no votes. hold press conferences in parking lots and with men leaking shoe polish from the sides of their bald heads insisting they have proof but forgot it in their other pants. fire his other lead lawyer claiming the proof is days away, days before the elections are certified. do nothing and wait until after the elections have all been certified. accuse his political opponents, the DOJ, FBI, his close allies, and his own appointed staff of being in on the fraud.

i mean, money well spent
THIS is the operative part of the plan. Donny is all about the grift. And here it is.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that method (insertion of USB) how the outlying polling station voting data gets officially entered into the vote-counting system? If so, I would expect there will be a whole swathe of verification algorithms go across all that data before they even get considered to be counted. Then they will be checked again. Then re-checked by other sets of eyes. And confirmed against a whole series of voter databases, etc. That is, due diligence. So any fake or duplicate or other malicious data is going to be rapidly filtered out and flagged. And yet this didn't happen at any step along the way. With him, the experts data guy, sitting watching.

This guy, who claims and advertises he is a big data expert, seems to be claiming that just because a USB of "something" is inserted in a PC within view at a vote-counting station that vote-rigging is definitely the only possible thing that is happening as a result. If he thought it was suspect, did he raise an alarm? he says he complained...did that go anywhere? Any record of that complaint?

It's about as realistic as turning on the faucet of a garden hose, and when water comes out calling it sorcery.

All these allegations are really appealing to the small town under-educated "common sense" folks.

Yes, it could be possible to take a screwdriver to a voting machine, or switch USB drives, or create an algorithm to switch votes, or drive in a food truck filled with invalid ballots.

That could happen.

But all of those things would be vary easily caught. All of those things are things that have been thought of decades ago and there are processes to ensure that they don't happen.

Maybe somebody could do it. But there is no way they could get away with it.

You can rob a bank with the cops sitting right outside. You can do the robbery and get the money. But you are caught on camera, and the die packs explode, and security captures you and the police come in. Yeah, you robbed the bank. But you totally got busted.

That is the way with elections. Sure, people could maybe do what the people claim, but if they did it would have sent up red flags all over the place. But there have been no red flags. Even with a full hand recount audit in Georgia.
 
I'll be interested to see (if any of the cases get to a stage where the courts allow the plaintiffs access to the hardware) who the plaintiffs' experts will be, this is a very specialised field.

How are experts assessed in USA civil matters?
 
All these allegations are really appealing to the small town under-educated "common sense" folks.

Yes, it could be possible to take a screwdriver to a voting machine, or switch USB drives, or create an algorithm to switch votes, or drive in a food truck filled with invalid ballots.

That could happen.


...snip...

And any good judge or arbitrator is not going to allow possible to be mistaken for probable.
 
Strong "Leopards eating faces" vibes coming out of Georgia recently regarding the Republican Governor and Sec of State getting thrown under the bus for failing to find fraud and overturn the Biden win. Same applies to Barr too.

It's undoubtedly a very dire sign for our country that the rabid right is purging those who are ideologically insufficient, but it's hard to take the crocodile tears of these ghouls too seriously.

"Mainstream" conservatives have long been perfectly content stoking the fires of conspiratorial thinking so long as it benefitted them to whip up their voting base, and only now are complaining when their monster turns on them. I suppose it wasn't a problem when these people were accusing Obama of being a foreign born crypto-islamo-marxo-fascist, but now that it's good ole Republicans getting thrown under the conspiratorial bus, it's gone too far.

Again, not a good sign for our nation that one major party is purging anyone who doesn't adequately support Trump's coup, but one can still take a compartmentalized bit of joy watching these people get devoured by a monster of their own creation.
 
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How are experts assessed in USA civil matters?

Poorly.

The relevant legal rule is here in the Federal Rules of Evidence. The controlling legal precedent for interpreting the rule is the Daubert standard. In practice, neither judges nor attorneys are good at determining whether a witness is a true expert and whether expert testimony is based on a solid foundation of expertise, fact, and reliable method. And they know this about themselves, which means they tend to err on the side of accepting expert opinion as evidence. Loss Leader recommended me the book The Cadaver King and the Country Dentist, which illustrates just how far one can go as an "expert witness" in the American justice system.

In practical terms, a potential expert witness for either party would submit a c.v. to the court and be qualified pretty much on those grounds alone as able to give expert testimony. Voir dire of proposed experts is allowed. It would be up to opposing counsel, either in pretrial hearings or at trial, to poke holes in either the foundation of the expert testimony, or the testimony itself. But there's nothing really that the judge would do to verify that experts really are experts. Most often, the plaintiffs present their experts and the defendants present their own experts, and the jury decides whose opinion is the most credible.
 
I have not posted for a day or so, so this may already be here;

https://www.gpb.org/news/2020/12/01...ection-official-blasts-gop-silence-on-threats

"A top election official in Georgia had scathing words for President Donald Trump and other top Republican leaders who have been attacking Georgia's election system in recent weeks after a spate of reported harassment and death threats during the state's recount.
A Twitter thread accusing a young technician of altering votes in Gwinnett County led to his identity being released and calls for him to be "hung for treason." Caravans of horn-honking Trump supporters constantly parade past Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger's private residence and his wife has received sexually explicit threats. "

Donald Trump's legacy. A dirty, nasty, evidence free campaign to undermine democracy.
 
Rocky start continues for Sidney Powell's election-fraud lawsuit in Wisconsin. The judge assigned to the case says her team filed a draft motion by accident and still hasn't complied with the basic rules for seeking a temporary restraining order...

This particular civil procedure screw-up in Powell's lawsuit means the defendants don't even have to respond to her request for a temporary restraining order until a week after the Electoral College meets...

Just an amazing pattern of lawyers showing up with what they say are the most important cases ever filed and botching the basics. Even the President's lawyers screwed up the everyday rules for suing people.

These are the mistakes you see when prisoners represent themselves.

Hilite my own.
https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/1334169015363702786

Truly incompetent lawyering brought in by this conspiracy theory. The Kraken has accidentally beached itself.
 
I'll be interested to see (if any of the cases get to a stage where the courts allow the plaintiffs access to the hardware) who the plaintiffs' experts will be, this is a very specialised field.

How are experts assessed in USA civil matters?


Someone mentioned at one point that the computer repair guy who "found Hunter Biden's laptop" had closed his shop. Maybe he's being prepared for his new role as an expert witness. :D
 
I listened to Strenstrom's (sp?) testimony from the press event in Gettysburg, and there was one thing I heard from him, that I would really like to know more about.



That's pretty serious, but I tried to google something about it, and I guess my Google Fu isn't very good, because I wanted to know more detail. Can you help me out? I've heard the statement, but I'm looking for the data to back it up. What can you do for me?



Meanwhile, I strongly encourage everyone to watch Gabriel Sterling's comments from today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLi-Yo6IucQ

I suspect most people here will recognize the name, or at least the face. He's the official who runs elections in Georgia. His boss is the Secretary of State.

I live in Delaware county and if data went missing by USB cards then entire towns would have dropped out. You’d have Clifton Heights showing Zero votes for anyone for Folcroft reading a flat zero besides the mail-in ballots. It doesn’t show that anywhere. You can easily find the figures online. They show no such signs.
 
I live in Delaware county and if data went missing by USB cards then entire towns would have dropped out. You’d have Clifton Heights showing Zero votes for anyone for Folcroft reading a flat zero besides the mail-in ballots. It doesn’t show that anywhere. You can easily find the figures online. They show no such signs.

But....but....Bubba said there were 47 missing memory sticks, and 50,000 votes. I know where he got that from. I watched the video of the guy's testimony at a hotel in Gettysburg, but I can't find anything in follow up. That guy was a US Navy veteran, so I'm sure it must be true. Surely Bubba knows where to find more information.



Meanwhile, over in Nevada, I saw a lawyer interviewed on Fox Business who says he has overwhelming evidence of fraud that will be submitted to a judge by 5:00 today. At least on Fox Business, this lawsuit actually alleges real fraud. Let's see what gets submitted.
 
Poorly.

The relevant legal rule is here in the Federal Rules of Evidence. The controlling legal precedent for interpreting the rule is the Daubert standard. In practice, neither judges nor attorneys are good at determining whether a witness is a true expert and whether expert testimony is based on a solid foundation of expertise, fact, and reliable method. And they know this about themselves, which means they tend to err on the side of accepting expert opinion as evidence. Loss Leader recommended me the book The Cadaver King and the Country Dentist, which illustrates just how far one can go as an "expert witness" in the American justice system.

In practical terms, a potential expert witness for either party would submit a c.v. to the court and be qualified pretty much on those grounds alone as able to give expert testimony. Voir dire of proposed experts is allowed. It would be up to opposing counsel, either in pretrial hearings or at trial, to poke holes in either the foundation of the expert testimony, or the testimony itself. But there's nothing really that the judge would do to verify that experts really are experts. Most often, the plaintiffs present their experts and the defendants present their own experts, and the jury decides whose opinion is the most credible.

Yep, and even further that that, I expect that the plaintiffs will "witness shop" for their so-called expert, looking around until they find one that will tell them exactly what they want to hear.
 
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