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Cancel student loan debt?

ahhell said:
I can't think of any reason not to transfer wealth to the 40ish percent of the population at the top of the socio-economic latter.

I'd consider it for tradesmen and women.


Side note, the majority of defaults on student loans comes from folks that never finish there program of study, a lot of that is Junior College, and the relatively small number of folks with 100k plus debt to small worthless liberal arts colleges.

Some interesting data.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...-most-in-student-loans-new-data-from-the-fed/

Student debt forgiveness seems fair and a totally progressive policy.
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This is probably the best criticism of the student loan forgiveness program out there.

There are definitely student borrowers with low incomes out there struggling, but this is not the case with all student borrowers. There are plenty of wealthier folks out there that took these loans, even big loans, and they are paying off handsomely. Any forgiveness would be just a handout to the wealthy.

I suppose some of this has to do with the political fascination with the "middle class", which most of these college educated people would have previously qualified. We largely take it as granted that the many blue collar working people live in a level of near poverty and that's just fine, but the idea of college educated people slipping to this state is anathema.

There's definitely some specific issues related to college costs, but a larger piece of the puzzle is likely the slipping wages of many working people, increasingly including professional and skilled labor type jobs.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
This is probably the best criticism of the student loan forgiveness program out there.

There are definitely student borrowers with low incomes out there struggling, but this is not the case with all student borrowers. There are plenty of wealthier folks out there that took these loans, even big loans, and they are paying off handsomely. Any forgiveness would be just a handout to the wealthy.
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Yep, that's me, sort of.

I took out relatively modest loans to go back to school and it has paid off. Until about a year ago I was still making that monthly payment just because the interest rate was so low. I actually only paid it off because I was paying my kid's tuition bill and it just seemed like a good time to just wipe it clean. Financially, it actually would have been smarter to make a large payment to my mortgage which has a slightly higher rate, but reducing the number of loans has an emotional appeal.

But, I would be means tested out of any forgiveness program anyway, so no big deal. Means testing is pretty easy to do for most people as cash payments of any real size become more rare.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Big picture... We've got lenders who aren't evaluating whether or not the student in question is likely to finish their degree, nor whether their degree is likely to put them in a position to repay the loan. We've got borrowers who aren't considering whether or not they've going to graduate, or whether the field they want to study is likely to produce a reasonable income with a degree.

Neither of those is a very good idea.
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And both were intentionally created as a way to help those who are less fortunate move up in life. The thinking was that if the government backs the loans then lenders will lend to poor kids so more poor kids can get an education. It has all the trappings of a good deed to help poor kids (think of the children!), but when you peel back the veneer it is really just a program to help banks (think of the bankers!).

I wonder how much better of an investment it would have been to just shovel that financial muscle into more means tested grants for academically successful students. Maybe fewer kids going to college, but then maybe a better percentage of them could actually get jobs. And fewer of them would be struggling under the yoke of high debt.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
You keep saying that, but then you talk yourself right back around to it. Ours just isn't a society where larger societal obligations can be handled as pleasantly as mowing your neighbor's lawn to pay him back for watching your cat. It would be a nicer place if it were, but we're not there yet nor will we be any time soon.

What you see as a polite request I see interpreted as mandatory punishment, and I think I can point to enough real-life situations to show that my view is more likely to be correct. And at least one other person agrees with your proposal on the basis of it being punitive just as community service sentences are used today.
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Your notion of "how it is" doesn't affect what my intentions are with my remarks. That you choose to intepret things through your own bias is your doing, not mine. And no, having someone agree with you doesn't make it so. Please stop ascribing to me your own notions. I have explained several times now what I think and why I think it. You are free to disagree with my ideas, of course. You are not free to repeatedly insult me by calling me a liar and saying I secretly agree with your interpretation but present a false message to conceal sinister motives. Please stop it.
 
My boss doesn't give me my paycheck unless I work, with no pretense that it's a polite request. I guess I don't get why this is different just because you get the money first.
 
I guess one big difference is both you and your boss can terminate the relationship at any time and for any reason if they don’t find the arrangement working anymore. I suppose that’s what loan forgiveness would be if you want to make that comparison
 
dirtywick said:
I guess one big difference is both you and your boss can terminate the relationship at any time and for any reason if they don’t find the arrangement working anymore. I suppose that’s what loan forgiveness would be if you want to make that comparison
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But regardless "I upheld my end of the bargain, I expect you to do the same" can't be the evil concept some here are making it out to be.

Not every bargain is Faustian just because one side gets a raw deal.
 
dirtywick said:
I guess one big difference is both you and your boss can terminate the relationship at any time and for any reason if they don’t find the arrangement working anymore. I suppose that’s what loan forgiveness would be if you want to make that comparison
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Apparently anything less than a complete gift with absolutely nothing in return is acceptable. The public must pay off all the debt and can receive nothing: no exchange, no token, no gesture, not even a verbal "thank you" or else it's evil. In fact, even having to say this proves that you're evil because it should have been taken for granted and not needed to be said. Oh, and we should erect monuments to honor the debtors for their great sacrifice in deigning to accept what the public definitely owes them. And why not throw in a billion dollars each, for their trouble? And we should do as the Romans did and deify human beings as well, that they may be worshipped as gods hereafter. Don't question it or you're worse than Hitler!
 
JoeMorgue said:
But regardless "I upheld my end of the bargain, I expect you to do the same" can't be the evil concept some here are making it out to be.

Not every bargain is Faustian just because one side gets a raw deal.
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I don’t think anyone is claiming that it is. I think there’s much more of a “everyone should have to pay back their student loans in all cases because I managed to do it” vibe

It’s easier to get out of debt on much more frivolous and irresponsible types of debt. I would have assumed that everyone could agree that’s a bad thing at a previous point in time.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Apparently anything less than a complete gift with absolutely nothing in return is acceptable. The public must pay off all the debt and can receive nothing: no exchange, no token, no gesture, not even a verbal "thank you" or else it's evil. In fact, even having to say this proves that you're evil because it should have been taken for granted and not needed to be said. Oh, and we should erect monuments to honor the debtors for their great sacrifice in deigning to accept what the public definitely owes them. And why not throw in a billion dollars each, for their trouble? And we should do as the Romans did and deify human beings as well, that they may be worshipped as gods hereafter. Don't question it or you're worse than Hitler!
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I’ll agree to a written thank you if you don’t lump me in with whoever you’re arguing about that with lol
 
dirtywick said:
I don’t think anyone is claiming that it is. I think there’s much more of a “everyone should have to pay back their student loans in all cases because I managed to do it” vibe

It’s easier to get out of debt on much more frivolous and irresponsible types of debt. I would have assumed that everyone could agree that’s a bad thing at a previous point in time.
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Okay but they aren't. If you don't pay your credit cards you can get out of the debt, but it's hard. If you don't pay your mortgage they take your house. If you declare bankruptcy it has massive repercussions that last decades.

I think people are being very dishonest about how easy it is to get rid of other kinds of debt.
 
acbytesla said:
How exactly does it do that? This isn't a zero sum game. I don't see how helping college students hurts anyone.
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This thread is many pages deep now, and it may have already been addressed.

I strongly oppose student loan forgiveness, because it's not fair to me (yes, it's selfish, but that's all of politics).

I could not afford to pay for school, and my chosen career path was unlikely to make taking out a big loan a good idea. So, I fought, kicked and screamed my way into the middle class. At 44, I've just barely made it there.

How do you think I would feel about a bunch of younger people -- who I must compete with in the marketplace -- getting to reap the benefits of a college degree, without having to bear the burden of paying for it.

I made the responsible decision; they did not.

All that said, I'm fine offering free college at public institutions from here forward. In that scenario, I can always go back to school.
 
dirtywick said:
I’ll agree to a written thank you if you don’t lump me in with whoever you’re arguing about that with lol
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Too bad, in this thread we interpret the sinister motivations behind what we imagine other people are thinking despite what they write. Obviously that means you are in favor of workhouses and debt slavery, and I see your willingness to accept a thank you as a hardcore push to transport debtors to Mars to labor in aluminum mines.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Okay but they aren't. If you don't pay your credit cards you can get out of the debt, but it's hard. If you don't pay your mortgage they take your house. If you declare bankruptcy it has massive repercussions that last decades.

I think people are being very dishonest about how easy it is to get rid of other kinds of debt.
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student loan debt you can’t, it’s treated differently in a way that favors the creditors. It’s not any more complicated than that.
 
dirtywick said:
student loan debt you can’t, it’s treated differently in a way that favors the creditors. It’s not any more complicated than that.
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It changes nothing. You ask for money in exchange for paying it back. It doesn't get more complicated than that.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
It changes nothing. You ask for money in exchange for paying it back. It doesn't get more complicated than that.
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Except for the lack of collateral. With a defaulted house or auto loan, the lender can recover some of their loss by taking the house or auto. Can't really do that with education--if it doesn't pay off then it has no value.

Perhaps schools should offer partial money back if their graduates don't get good jobs in their fields! That would motivate schools to help their graduates find work, and make the overall loan safer for the lender and the borrower.
 
Varanid said:
All that said, I'm fine offering free college at public institutions from here forward. In that scenario, I can always go back to school.
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You might actually be able to now. Lots of public schools let oldsters audit or even take classes for credit for free or very low cost.

edited a typo. I'm worse than normal on account of illness, I swear.
 
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dirtywick said:
student loan debt you can’t, it’s treated differently in a way that favors the creditors. It’s not any more complicated than that.
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The creditors are almost exclusively semi-public agencies. Sallie-Mae and what not and the federal government.

https://www.investopedia.com/articl...81216/who-actually-owns-student-loan-debt.asp

Of note, the Feds owned no student debt prior to the 90s. I wonder if that correlates at all with the rise in prices and soaring student debet?
 
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