Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

[dann]

This. I was looking at some art gallery paintings recently and was struck by how many artists and their subjects were tublerculosis victims. Now TB is still within living memory of our grandparents - I even knew someone near my age whose father died of TB in a sanatorium - not to mention polio, which was rife especially in Denmark up to the early sixties, and will have also been in Sweden.

Not exactly rife, I think, but the last case was in 1976:

I 1955-1956 blev der gennemført en omfattende poliovaccination af den danske befolkning. Danmark var det første land i verden, der kunne tilbyde skolebørn i de fem første skoleklasser én gratis poliovaccination. Takket være vaccinationsprogrammet, blev en polioepidemi i Danmark i 1961 væsentlig mindre end forventet. Senere udvikledes en forbedret vaccine, der kunne indtages gennem munden på et stykke sukker.
Det sidste tilfælde af polio i Danmark blev registreret i 1976.
Polio (Wikipedia)

In 1955-56, a massive polio vaccination campaign was carried out in the Danish population. Denmark was the first country in the world to offer school children in the first five years of classes one free polio vaccination. Thanks to the vaccination campaign, a polio epidemic in Denmark in 1961 was considerably smaller than expected. Later, an improved vaccine was developed, which could be administered orally in a lump of sugar.
The last case of polio in Denmark was registered in 1976.

Given the relatively modern day scourges of TB and poliomyelitis, which swept across Europe, I struggle to understand how Tegnell can rationalise away his 'pandemic strategy' as being due to 'Covid19 being completely new and unprecedented'. It is just nonsense. They had the tools - previous dangerous contagious diseases, together with their medical studies thereof in order to qualify and specialise in that very topic - they had the know-how: they knew exactly what needs to be done to limit the spread of the disease. It is just infuriating to see experts adopt the 'do nothing' approach, even if the likes of Johnson, Bolsanaro (_sp?) and Trump could be forgiven (humph!) as being ignorant and uncaring self-serving politicians.

Uncaring and self-serving, yes, definitely. But Trump was never as ignorant about this as he pretended (and sometimes still pretends) to be. Remember him bragging to Woodward about his knowledge of the new virus?!
Timeline: Charting Trump's public comments on Covid-19 vs. what he told Woodward in private (CNN, Sep. 16, 2020)

I had to look up how much Bolsonaro knew, but he had people advising him, too. (It would have been weird if he hadn't. They all do.) He fired his minister of health!

Coronavirus advice ignored by Brazil's President Jair Bolsonaro (BBC News, April 21, 2020)

 

[dann]

Rolfe is talking about 'true airborne' diseases, but of course livestock would be outside in a field so then, wind blown disease-carrying viruses/bacteria becomes relevant. However, of course, livestock are rarely indoors, except in their pens and stalls.

Oh yes, they are! And they go crazy when they are let out in spring!

If Covid19 is not airborne, how would you explain mink populations across northern Europe carrying the '5-cluster' Covid19 mutation, and passing it on to at least a dozen human individuals?

That could be through droplets! Animals sneeze, too! And remember that furriers get infected, too.
I don't think mink have infected people who weren't in direct contact with them.
The interesting question is how coronavirus spreads from mink farm to mink farm. At one point, coronavirus was found on the feet of Danish seagulls.
I guess you could call that airborne.

 

[dann]

New restrictions are expected to be announced in Denmark:

- Det ville være en klog disposition at lukke for al undervisning fra 6. klasse og op 14 dage før juleferien for på den måde at komme ind i julen med et lavt smittetryk, siger han.
Eksperter bakker op om restriktioner, men vil gå længere: Luk for undervisning (TV2.dk, Nov. 30, 2020)

- It would be a wise decision to lock down all education, from the sixth year of school and older, 14 days before the Christmas holidays in order to start Christmas with a low level of infection, he says.
Experts back up restrictions but want to go further: Lock down education

De nye restriktioner kan komme i spil fra mandag 7. december og vil i første omgang gælde til 2. januar.
Coronarestriktioner på vej i 17 hovedstadskommuner (TV2.dk, Nov. 30, 2020)

The new restrictions may begin on Monday, Dec. 7, and will last till at least Jan. 2.
Corona restrictions on the way in 17 municipalities in the Copenhagen area
Currently, 15 of the hardest-hit municipalities in Denmark are in the Copenhagen area. I live in one of them, Frederiksberg.

 

[dann]

Scandinavian corona bullying

Norwegians are mean to Swedes!

Åsa Weiland jobbar som sjuksköterska och har bott 23 år i Norge. Hon säger att coronakrisen har påverkat den norska synen på svenskar.
Åsa Weiland i Oslo tänker sig för innan hon pratar svenska i matbutiken. Andra svenskar i Norge vittnar om norrmän som inte vill sitta tillsammans med arbetskamrater från grannlandet på lunchrasten. På båda sidor kölen har regeringarna rutit till mot det som kallas ”coronamobbning”.
– Den är absolut ingen överdrift, säger Norgependlaren Fredrica Bornstedt.
Åsa har levt i Norge i 23 år – nu vill hon inte längre prata svenska i mataffären (DagensNyheter.se, Nov. 30, 2020)

Åsa Weiland is working as a nurse and has lived in Norway for 23 years. She says that the corona crisis has affected the Norwegian view on Swedes.
Åsa Weiland considers carefully before speaking Swedish in the food store. Other Swedes in Norway talk about Norwegians who won’t sit at the same table as colleagues from the neighouring country at lunch break. On both side of the border, the governments have cracked down on the so-called ”corona bullying”.
– It is absolutely not exaggerated, says Swedish Norway commuter Fredrica Bornstedt.
Åsa has lived in Norway for 23 years – now she won’t speak Swedish in the food shop

 

[Rolfe]

That is simply not true. Tuberculosis is airborne yet you won't catch it outside in the wind. You have to breathe in a concentrated amount of droplet nuclei (not to be confused with droplets in droplet spread) in order for enough of the TB bacillus to make it to the alveoli which has the conditions it requires to start an infection.

The rest of my answer is in the COVID medicine thread.

It is absolutely true. I stated that this coronavirus does not spread long distances outdoors on the wind. It doesn't. Unless you know something nobody else does.

 

[Rolfe]

Rolfe is talking about 'true airborne' diseases, but of course livestock would be outside in a field so then, wind blown disease-carrying viruses/bacteria becomes relevant. However, of course, livestock are rarely indoors, except in their pens and stalls.

If Covid19 is not airborne, how would you explain mink populations across northern Europe carrying the '5-cluster' Covid19 mutation, and passing it on to at least a dozen human individuals?

Livestock are frequently indoors. Some intensively-farmed animals never see the outside, though I wouldn't condone that. The epizootiology of calf pneumonia is an interesting topic, including how to design or modify buildings to mitigate the risk.

People are often outdoors too, you may have noticed from time to time. If this could be caught on the wind while you were out on a solo country walk we'd be in a lot more trouble than we are. This coronavirus does not transmit over significant distances out of doors, and nothing that has happened with respect to the mink has called that into question.

 

[Rolfe]

I remember being in the first cohort of Scottish children who received the first Salk vaccine. I'm not sure of the date but I was pre-school. Might have been 1957. There was a boy in my class at primary school who had both legs in callipers. He must have been a polio victim. The virus must have been in our village when I was a baby. No wonder my mother couldn't get me down to that clinic fast enough. (I was a bit miffed when I learned later that an oral vaccine - the Sabin vaccine - had been developed and you only had to eat a sugar lump, not have a needle stuck in you twice.)

My father's first wife died of tuberculosis in the 1940s. To think of it, if it wasn't for TB I'd never have been born.

That's how close we are to these diseases, but people forget.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think you need more context.

Rolfe and I were discussing airborne viruses - the one that springs to mind is Foot and Mouth, which is airborne and the outbreaks can spread several *miles* downwind. At least that isn't the case with COVID-19.

I read the context.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... If Covid19 is not airborne, how would you explain mink populations across northern Europe carrying the '5-cluster' Covid19 mutation, and passing it on to at least a dozen human individuals?

Good example. Could be airborne via contaminated dust. That is how Haanta virus is spread, disturbed mouse nests cause the contaminated particles to become airborne.

And the issue for humans is once the virus passes through the mink, secondary human infections might be vaccine resistant. Also passing back and forth between animals and humans might facilitate mutations.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....
The interesting question is how coronavirus spreads from mink farm to mink farm. At one point, coronavirus was found on the feet of Danish seagulls.
I guess you could call that airborne.

A number of animal pathogens are of concern in farms because they can be spread on the shoes/boots of farm workers.

It's likely these minks are being infected directly from persons. But once a single mink or two are infected it spreads rapidly throughout the farm. The speed which the virus spreads from animal to animal suggests airborne spread.

BBC: What's the science behind mink and coronavirus?

Scientists suspect the virus spreads in mink farms through infectious droplets, on feed or bedding, or in dust containing droppings....

... Some scientists have called for new restrictions on mink production, saying mink farming "impedes our response and recovery from the pandemic".

In a recent letter to the journal, Science, three scientists, from Denmark, China and Malaysia, wrote: "It is urgent to monitor, restrict, and - where possible - ban mink production."

The WHO has called on all countries to step up surveillance and tighten biosecurity measures around mink farms.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It is absolutely true. I stated that this coronavirus does not spread long distances outdoors on the wind. It doesn't. Unless you know something nobody else does.

You said it wasn't airborne because it wasn't spread outdoors in the wind.

True airborne transmission where...

I said you don't need outdoor long distance spread to define a pathogen as airborne—thus the example of TB which is airborne.

The rest of my reply is here.

 

[steenkh]

If Covid19 is not airborne, how would you explain mink populations across northern Europe carrying the '5-cluster' Covid19 mutation, and passing it on to at least a dozen human individuals?

I have never heard that the Cluster 5 mutation spread anywhere else than to a few mink farms in Northern Jutland. And I believe it was carried from farm to farm not by the wind, but by humans.

This mutation has only been registered in 12 humans, but it might have been carried by migrant workers who surprisingly were never tested. Cluster 5 is believed to be extinct by now.

 

[dann]

Monday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Nov. 30, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 660 (6,681) 6,774* 219* **according to SVT.se No new numbers till Tuesday afternoon.
Denmark: 144 (837) 1,129* 44 *based on 59,994 tests, 1.9 % positive.
Iceland: 76 (26) 11 2
Finland: 72 (399) 283 18
Norway: 61 (332) 322 35
Iceland has 187 active cases, Faroe Islands 5, New Zealand 72
The Faroe Islands have 49 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.

The person, who is linked to a known chain of infection, has been isolated and contact tracing is underway.
Over the past week, the daily number of positive tests has been as follows: 0, 0, 0, 0, 2, 0 and 1.
One new Covid case (KVF.fo, Nov. 30, 2020)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have never heard that the Cluster 5 mutation spread anywhere else than to a few mink farms in Northern Jutland. And I believe it was carried from farm to farm not by the wind, but by humans.

This mutation has only been registered in 12 humans, but it might have been carried by migrant workers who surprisingly were never tested. Cluster 5 is believed to be extinct by now.

There is no evidence it is spread from farm to farm on the wind. But it spreads within the farms in a manner suggesting there is at least some airborne transmission.

It's very easy to test, not sure if it's been done or is going to be done. You put critters in separate cages and see if it spreads from one separate cage to another. That's a standard means of detecting airborne spread.

 

[dann]

The speed which the virus spreads from animal to animal suggests airborne spread.

No, it doesn't. And your quotation contradicts it:

Scientists suspect the virus spreads in mink farms through infectious droplets, on feed or bedding, or in dust containing droppings....
BBC: What's the science behind mink and coronavirus? (BBC News, Nov. 9, 2020)

 

[dann]

Most recent news about contamination from mink:

- Vi har en undersøgelse, der viser, at de døde mink kan smitte, slår styrelsen fast.
Først smittede døde mink ikke, nu gør de - Fødevarestyrelsen erkender fejl (DR.dk, Nov. 30, 2020)

We have a study that shows that the dead mink can transmit the infection, the agency states.
At first, the dead mink did not transmit the virus, now they do - the Agency of Foodstuffs acknowledges error

The question became contentious after a truckload of dead mink were accidentally dropped on a highway and had to be cleaned up. Furriers getting infected is another example of dead mink transmitting the disease to humans.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, it doesn't. And your quotation contradicts it:

I did mention this, the spread via dust is airborne spread. I used the Haanta virus as an example of airborne spread via contaminated dust.

Histoplasmosis is another one. It's a fungal infection spread on dust.

Mayo Clinic: Histoplasmosis is an infection caused by breathing in spores of a fungus often found in bird and bat droppings. The infection is most commonly spread when these spores are inhaled after taking to the air, such as during demolition or cleanup projects.

Patients with histoplasmosis are not contagious.

From CDC/NIOSH re occupational exposure and protection:

Anyone working at a job or present near activities where material contaminated with H. capsulatum becomes airborne can develop histoplasmosis if enough spores are inhaled.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I wrote another post on this subject in the medicine thread.

 

[dann]

I did mention this, the spread via dust is airborne spread. I used the Haanta virus as an example of airborne spread via contaminated dust.

That wasn't my point. You wrote that the "speed which the virus spreads from animal to animal suggests airborne spread." It doesn't. They are in cages where they can sneeze on each other and lick each other through the bars.
That was the point of the photo.
A disease can't find a better way of spreading fast.

 

[dann]

The noble art of losing face ...

After Black Friday and before Christmas shopping begins:
Läkare kräver munskydd i butiker: ”Kan sluta illa” (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Nov. 29, 2020)
Doctors demand face masks in stores: "May end badly"

I am once again reminded of the snowflake in the White House. Thousands of people are dying, and yet it is necessary to think of ways to avoid hurting the feelings of those responsible for the deaths:

Vintern kan komma att bli avgörande i munskyddsfrågan. Luft som värms upp i våra hem när det är kallt ute är torrare än vanligt. Torr luft gör att luftburna aerosoler med coronavirus är mindre och svävar runt längre i luften, enligt en studie publicerad i tidsskriften Transboundary and Emerging diseases.
Enligt Fredrik Elgh, professor i virologi vid Umeå universitet, gör det nyttan med munskydd större och kan få myndigheterna att svänga i frågan.
– Det skulle kunna vara en utväg för dem om de nu ska tappa ansiktet och rekommendera munskydd, säger han.
Sverige kan tvingas till nya restriktioner (Expressen.se, Nov. 30, 2020)

In the question of face masks, the coming winter may be crucial. Air that is heated in our homes when it is cold outside is drier than usual. Dry air means that airborne aerosols with coronavirus are smaller and floats in the air longer, according to a study published in the journal Transboundary and Emerging diseases.
According to Fredrik Elgh, professor of virology at the University of Umeå, it increases the usefulness of face masks and may make the authorities change their minds about the issue.
– It would be a way out for them if they have to lose face and recommend face masks, he says.
Sweden may be forced to introduce new restrictions