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Cont: 2020 Presidential Election part 3

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Meadmaker said:
that there are lots of people in the United States, including some in government, who don't get "democracy" as an idea, or as an end in itself. They would throw the whole thing away to get what they want.
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Nonsense

They see the death of democracy, and worse, in a stolen election.


And if we are being really honest, we know that if the shoe were on the other foot, there are plenty of people on the left that would do the same thing.
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Like Dominion's Antifa Eric Coomer
 
Bubba said:
For months the black bloc brats have been keeping it simmering with arson, smashing, and looting in key cities, and the guy who said "I am 100% Antifa" murdered someone in Portland. The MSM supports it with under reporting and false narratives.

They will turn it up if Trump prevails.


On the other side are some veterans and others believing Trump's votes were stolen. They are less likely to riot if Biden prevails.
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Trump "prevails"?

What kind of fantasyland do you live in? Trump lost. He lost by 6.3 million votes.
 
Bubba said:
And just like that....this election had no russian collusion, and they did not even notice.
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The haunting questions of the 2016 election caused the 2020 election to be the most secure and carefully executed election in American history.

You probably didn't know that Stone had set up a "stop the steal" campaign in 2016 because no one expected Trump to win. This is how fake the election fraud claims are now.

Betting on Trump's failure was always a good way to go in the long run.
 
Bubba said:
Nonsense

They see the death of democracy, and worse, in a stolen election.
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Keep telling yourself that. Keep pushing a conspiracy theory that even Trump's allies have not advocated for in an actual courtroom. Go back a week where under examination by Judge Brann Trump's lead attorney Rudy Giuliani didn't allege fraud.

Clock is ticking boy. And every state is certifying the election for Biden. The key states keep aligning with Biden. Every single one of them.
 
Bubba said:
Time will tell
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That's right. Time will tell. 27 states have certified their election results. Including Georgia, Michigan and Pennsylvania. Wisconsin and Arizona will certify by Tuesday and Arizona is a fait acompli. What are you waiting for? California?
 
Bubba said:
Nonsense

They see the death of democracy, and worse, in a stolen election.
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That's the rationalization part.

Rationalization is an interesting phenomenon, and so, so, common in humans.

They will convince themselves that up is down if it means they get what they want.

Biden got more votes, including the special sort of votes in electoral college math. However, that's not what some people want, so they will say it didn't happen. They can't bring themselves to actually say something anti-democratic, so they invent a fantasy of votes being counted multiple times, or dead people voting, or software that changes votes....and yet somehow a manual recount that is performed without the benefit of software matches the software record.

The Trump legal team, and the various yappers on the radio, and expert witnesses and whoever else is being quoted on OANN and Newsmax are making claims that could be verified, and yet, they aren't. I watched that security expert who "testified" at Gettysburg. He made testable claims. He could have also provided the evidence needed to test those claims, but he didn't.

I know polls were pretty bad this year, but what would you expect? Start with 2016, and ask who, among people who voted for Hillary Clinton that time, would vote for Donald Trump this time? It seems to me that would be a pretty small group. However, among people who voted for Donald Trump last time, there are lots of people turned off by his unpresidential behavior, and lots more people who don't like the results of his coronavirus response. So, we would expect at least a small shift toward a Democratic opponent. That's what we got, so Biden won. Some people can't accept that, so they make up phony reasons why it didn't really happen.
 
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Bubba said:
Joe Biden LOST every bellwether county but one...
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With global warming, perhaps the bell weather isn't what it used to be.

There is no demographic reason that these "bellwether counties" are representative of the nation as a whole. They are almost all counties with small populations, mostly outside of urban areas where the politics tend towards conservatism. That they were wrong this time is an artefact of the current polarized political environment.
 
Bubba said:
Can you name the Democrats already calling for "Truth and Reconciliation" tribunals, and detainment camps, for people guilty of supporting Trump??
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No as that would be like the Nazi party. Remember, it's you and your Trump team, that likes Nazis and wants a right wing coup.
 

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Bubba's denialism of the fact that Trump lost is pitiful, but one of the posts (s)he made about it somewhere back there contained some things that Democrats seem to have equally pitiful denialism over. And the latter is more self-destructive; it will do its bearers more harm if they don't snap out of it.

This election was a failure for Democrats in every way except the fact that Trump lost. Biden underperformed even the worst-case-scenario projections, getting 306 when he was supposed to get 320-360. Trump's share of various demographic groups that the Democrats think they own, such as black, Latino, homosexual, and I think women (not sure on that last one, not going looking for it) only increased since last time. Regardless of which way the two Senate runoffs go, the Democrats will have lost a bunch of seats in Congress. The Senate probably won't end up in the best-case scenario for Democrats, looking like a tie with a Democrat tiebreaker, but even if it does, that won't do any good legislatively because they seldom have 100% agreement within their own party; some like Manchin have already declared their intention to vote with Republicans on certain issues. Yes, Trump's spectacular self-immolation is the most highly visible part of the big picture, and there were a few Republican losses in Congress, but those are little blue dents in the red wave.

Trump loss deniers seem to claim that this somehow means Trump couldn't have really lost, as if it weren't possible for multiple simultaneous elections to fail to all favor the same party. Of course it doesn't really mean that; it just means that Trump was so terrible that he managed to motivate a record level of votes against himself, even from people who had no interest at all in voting for Biden and voted more for other Republicans but not Trump. But one election out of lots & lots of simultaneous elections does not define the overall pattern and the overall pattern here is perfectly clear. Aside from the big distracting outlier, the people have made an unmistakable statement that they do not see the Democrats as offering what they want; the overall result is a thorough repudiation of Trump individually, and of democrats generally. And most Democrats are continuing to pay no attention to that fact.
 
Bubba said:
Proving how sharp his political instincts are, the former VP managed to gather a record number of votes while consistently trailing President Trump in measures of voter enthusiasm. Biden was so savvy that he motivated voters unenthusiastic about his campaign to vote for him in record numbers.
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Hmm? I'm going to echo acbytesla here a bit. Trump managed to make the election very much about Trump, because that's the way Trump works.

Trump is horrendous. He was propped up by extremely biased right-wing propaganda and lies and the very divisive partisanship that the right wing has been ever more successful with since right wing extremist activists worked to steal control of various organizations like the NRA and use them to spread divisive disinformation for political ends.

Most of the country is very well aware of this, with some of the country intensely disturbed by how remarkably well the Trump era has mirrored Germany in the period just before the Nazis seized power and trying to prevent that from happening again. It looks like we've succeeded, at least to stave that off, either way.

Bubba said:
Trump will not give up.

He will win no matter what it takes.

The simmering civil war will get hot
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"Hot" as in extremist right-wing terrorism will continue to rise? Sure, maybe, because of the manufactured outrage over nonsense that the right so loves. An actual civil war? I suppose if the right keeps working to make it so that American citizens DON'T get a fair chance and then keep effectively redirecting that dissatisfaction towards those who are actually trying to make it so that they will get a fair chance, it might get there, but it would be incredibly messy and likely very quickly doomed.

Meadmaker said:
I think we all get nervous because the very fact that any of this is happening at all suggests that there are lots of people in the United States, including some in government, who don't get "democracy" as an idea, or as an end in itself. They would throw the whole thing away to get what they want. They want lower taxes, or a land free of Mexicans, or making it once again socially acceptable to insult queers, or whatever it was that they really liked that they thought Donald would do to make America great again.

So, when we see a whole lot of people saying that we should ignore the votes, and making up phony rationalizations about why we shouldn't accept the votes, we know that there is something deeply rotten in America today, and that sooner or later, what we know of as America might simply stop.

And if we are being really honest, we know that if the shoe were on the other foot, there are plenty of people on the left that would do the same thing.
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I'd call this largely a fair statement. There are, in fact, very significant differences that are the case when it comes to people on the left compared to the right, but there would likely be some similar behavior as the result, albeit expressed differently. Also... it may be worth it to point out that "we know that there is something deeply rotten in America today, and that sooner or later, what we know of as America might simply stop" as being something that's the case anyways, regardless of this election.

Bubba said:
For months the black bloc brats have been keeping it simmering with arson, smashing, and looting in key cities,
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Not just them, of course. To be perfectly clear, though, said "black bloc brats" are largely not appreciated by most of the protestors, and pretty clearly not by BLM. Moving past that, though, there's distinct hypocrisy in the way (especially, but not only) right wing propaganda treats those morons compared to the various other intentional causers of damage and bad behavior.

Bubba said:
and the guy who said "I am 100% Antifa" murdered someone in Portland.
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By his own telling, it was a killing that happened in self-defense, which is entirely feasible given that the person he killed had already gone well out of their way to cause harm to others - and then that guy was hunted down and murdered, himself, after having made it perfectly clear that he was willing submit to the Justice system and be put on trial for his actions. Invoking that case does NOT help your argument, even before you get to the various police officers and citizens that right wing terrorists are already killing anyways.

Bubba said:
And just like that....this election had no russian collusion, and they did not even notice.
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:rolleyes:

Bubba said:
Can you name the Democrats already calling for "Truth and Reconciliation" tribunals, and detainment camps, for people guilty of supporting Trump??
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How many of those Democrats are in positions of power, incidentally, and have been quoted accurately and in context?

How many of those Democrats are actually real people, for that matter?
 
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Delvo said:
Bubba's denialism of the fact that Trump lost is pitiful, but one of the posts (s)he made about it somewhere back there contained some things that Democrats seem to have equally pitiful denialism over. And the latter is more self-destructive; it will do its bearers more harm if they don't snap out of it.

This election was a failure for Democrats in every way except the fact that Trump lost. Biden underperformed even the worst-case-scenario projections, getting 306 when he was supposed to get 320-360. Trump's share of various demographic groups that the Democrats think they own, such as black, Latino, homosexual, and I think women (not sure on that last one, not going looking for it) only increased since last time. Regardless of which way the two Senate runoffs go, the Democrats will have lost a bunch of seats in Congress. The Senate probably won't end up in the best-case scenario for Democrats, looking like a tie with a Democrat tiebreaker, but even if it does, that won't do any good legislatively because they seldom have 100% agreement within their own party; some like Manchin have already declared their intention to vote with Republicans on certain issues. Yes, Trump's spectacular self-immolation is the most highly visible part of the big picture, and there were a few Republican losses in Congress, but those are little blue dents in the red wave.

Trump loss deniers seem to claim that this somehow means Trump couldn't have really lost, as if it weren't possible for multiple simultaneous elections to fail to all favor the same party. Of course it doesn't really mean that; it just means that Trump was so terrible that he managed to motivate a record level of votes against himself, even from people who had no interest at all in voting for Biden and voted more for other Republicans but not Trump. But one election out of lots & lots of simultaneous elections does not define the overall pattern and the overall pattern here is perfectly clear. Aside from the big distracting outlier, the people have made an unmistakable statement that they do not see the Democrats as offering what they want; the overall result is a thorough repudiation of Trump individually, and of democrats generally. And most Democrats are continuing to pay no attention to that fact.
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What, specifically, do you suggest the Dems do about this, starting with Biden?
 
I don't think the Dems can do anything, really, but wait it out.
We can already see that the Trump Revolution is eating its own children, and will continue to do so.
I'm waiting for Fox to answer Trump's attacks in kind.
 
Delvo said:
This election was a failure for Democrats in every way except the fact that Trump lost. Biden underperformed even the worst-case-scenario projections, getting 306 when he was supposed to get 320-360. Trump's share of various demographic groups that the Democrats think they own, such as black, Latino, homosexual, and I think women (not sure on that last one, not going looking for it) only increased since last time. Regardless of which way the two Senate runoffs go, the Democrats will have lost a bunch of seats in Congress. The Senate probably won't end up in the best-case scenario for Democrats, looking like a tie with a Democrat tiebreaker, but even if it does, that won't do any good legislatively because they seldom have 100% agreement within their own party; some like Manchin have already declared their intention to vote with Republicans on certain issues. Yes, Trump's spectacular self-immolation is the most highly visible part of the big picture, and there were a few Republican losses in Congress, but those are little blue dents in the red wave.

Trump loss deniers seem to claim that this somehow means Trump couldn't have really lost, as if it weren't possible for multiple simultaneous elections to fail to all favor the same party. Of course it doesn't really mean that; it just means that Trump was so terrible that he managed to motivate a record level of votes against himself, even from people who had no interest at all in voting for Biden and voted more for other Republicans but not Trump. But one election out of lots & lots of simultaneous elections does not define the overall pattern and the overall pattern here is perfectly clear. Aside from the big distracting outlier, the people have made an unmistakable statement that they do not see the Democrats as offering what they want; the overall result is a thorough repudiation of Trump individually, and of democrats generally. And most Democrats are continuing to pay no attention to that fact.
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I can't say that I agree that this election was a repudiation of the Democratic Party. I think that you're basing your conclusion on them not doing as well as the polls predicted. The Democrats are in much better shape than they were 4 years ago. They lost seats in the House, but they gained an unusually large amount in 2018, so I don't know that this represents any sort of significant long-term shift in the electorate. They picked up at least 1 seat in the Senate. I will agree, however, that the Democrats ran a poor campaign, such as focusing too much on the pandemic.
 
Bubba said:
Holy moly! A lot of Americans turned out for a Washington politician who’s been in office for nearly 50 years. Consider this: no incumbent president in nearly a century and a half has gained votes in a re-election campaign and still lost.
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Holy moly! In 2016, 62 million people voted for a presidential candidate who had no experience in government, who had run multiple businesses into bankruptcy, and who had recently been forced to refund more than $20 MILLION to people whom he had cheated by running a fake university.

Holy moly! In 2020, 73 million people voted for an incumbent president whose term in office was notable only for its incompetence, dishonesty, corruption, and continual turnover of senior personnel.
 
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