Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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The Atheist said:
Finland's PM makes a statement: "Everyone has the right to determine their own gender identity."

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-55020994
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Emily's Cat said:
That may be one of the least informative articles I've read with respect to actual issues. Good info about Finland's PM & Coalition though.
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There are also plans to reform the Trans Act, a law that currently requires those seeking legal gender recognition to undergo years of mental health screening and, unless they are already infertile, enforced sterilisation.

"Everyone should have the right to determine their own identities. And the programme supports this," Sanna Marin says.

Does she consider trans women, women?

"It's not my job to identify people," she says firmly. "It's everyone's job to identify themselves. It's not my place to say."

She may be the only government leader to have openly stated such a position on gender self-identification.
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The enforced sterilisation sounds almost like a human rights violation to me.

I mean, if it was anyone other than trans people, I think people would be horrified by talk of "enforced sterilisation". Why is that necessary? As a deterrent? Of course, it also means that there's no path back for anyone who might later come to regret the decision. Although, cross-sex hormone treatment may lead to infertility anyway, but that's a voluntary risk that those people take rather than a government mandate.

Yes, the law needs to be reformed. At least that part of it.
 
Puppycow said:
The enforced sterilisation sounds almost like a human rights violation to me.
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I'm guessing that "enforced sterilization" is a side-effect of hormonal treatments to transition. The point isn't the sterilization, but there is a requirement for medical transition rather than social transition before it's recognized.

I would say I probably don't agree with that requirement, but framing it as enforced sterilization seems dishonest to me (not on your part, to be clear).

ETA: I should also add that this is just a guess on my part, trying to make sense of something that doesn't seem to make sense. If the requirement really is for sterilization for the sake of sterilization, that seems crazy to me, and should definitely be changed.
 
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Roboramma said:
I'm guessing that "enforced sterilization" is a side-effect of hormonal treatments to transition. The point isn't the sterilization, but there is a requirement for medical transition rather than social transition before it's recognized.

I would say I probably don't agree with that requirement, but framing it as enforced sterilization seems dishonest to me (not on your part, to be clear).

ETA: I should also add that this is just a guess on my part, trying to make sense of something that doesn't seem to make sense. If the requirement really is for sterilization for the sake of sterilization, that seems crazy to me, and should definitely be changed.
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Uhhh, infertility may be a side-effect of cross-hormone therapy, but I wouldn't call that "enforced sterilization" by any means.

Looking for more information. . .

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/finland-must-protect-trans-rights

The 'Trans Act'

Currently, the Act on Legal Recognition of the Gender of Transsexuals (or the 'Trans Act') states that an individual's sex assigned at birth can be changed only be legally changed if:

the applicant presents a medical statement certifying she/he wishes to belong permanently to the opposite gender;
they live in that gender role;
and they have been sterilized or is ‘for some other reason infertile’.

The personal identity code assigned to Finnish citizens at birth indicates the sex assigned at birth – the last digit is always even for females and odd for males. All personal documents, including passport and identity cards and even library cards, are issued on the basis of this information. The code is required to apply for benefits (such as pensions) and for payment of salaries.

It is extremely important for transgender people that the code corresponds to their chosen gender identity and that they are not forced to ‘out’ themselves as transgender every time they are required to reveal their personal identity code.

The act also restricts the possibility to access legal gender recognition to individuals who have reached the legal age of maturity, which in Finland is 18. The whole process can take more than three years.

As of 2017, twenty European countries have a requirement that transgender people be sterilised prior to changing their legal gender. Two other Nordic countries, Denmark and Sweden, had similar conditions for gender recognition, but these have been dropped in recent years.

The Finnish Government has run out of excuses: it’s time to update the backward 'Trans Act' and ensure that trans people’s human rights are respected.
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Unless they are really being disingenuous here, I think that means what it says. If they meant some kind of medical procedure or treatment other than sterilization, I think they should clarify.

Apparently also in Finland, the "personal identity code" reveals their sex at birth (or assigned gender at birth if you prefer).
 
What does that mean? Why not?

Doesn't affect me either way. I just don't want to be asked to pay for it.

I think it should be elective treatment to be paid for by the individual who desires it, not something provided by taxpayers.
 
If someone has the all consuming need to be what they aren't they will make it happen. If not possible where they are, there are other places with subcultures to assist with every detail.

Rural Bible belt Mexico doesn't like trans, barely tolerates homosexual. México City has entire areas with those subcultures in big numbers.

If Juan needs to be Juanita to avoid suicide by all means get out of the bible belt and get to Mex City.

He certainly isn't going to change any minds back home despite superficial support.
It goes both ways, if one must escape the immoral decadence of the big city go into the bible belt as deep as you need to to find happiness.
I met someone that did that recently.

Don't put it on society to universally love every abberation of normal no matter how weird it is in that place.
It won't happen because people don't like weird. Even the most tolerant folks have arbitrary limits where something crossed the line and is just wrong.
Laws can prevent others doing damages to the odd, but not make anyone accept them.
 
Puppycow said:
I think it should be elective treatment to be paid for by the individual who desires it, not something provided by taxpayers.
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NZ allows a very small number of trans to undergo government-funded gender reassignment surgery each year.

It's a consequence of having free medical care for all - you have the whole pile of money and allocate a jillionth of a percent of it to GRS, just as you allocate money to other non-threatening but funded surgeries. There's just a very long waiting list. (well over 10 years for GRS right now)
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Also in NZ, rugby is having a moment of reckoning with transgender players.

Thankfully, it's not an issue at the professional level because World Rugby banned transgender players only a month ago, so NZ Rugby is looking at the amateur game to see if and how transgender players should play the game.

It may not seem like much of an issue, being strictly the bottom tiers of the game, but when rugby is a country's religion, people will treat any rugby competition as fiercely as a test match. There's no doubt in my mind that there would be male players who would self-identify as female for less than genuine reasons. Also, being a strength sport, having 20 years as a bloke under your uniform is going to give you a huge advantage.
 
Rolfe said:
You want to let them have their cake and eat it, basically.
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Honestly my view of what trans means is probably pretty different from what trans people think of it themselves. To some extent it's certainly possible to "live as" a women if you're biologically male, if that means taking on the gender roles of women. I can see how undergoing hormonal therapy and possibly surgery can make one's biology seem to line up more with the assumed gender.

I don't see any reason why infertility is necessary to that, though I can see that if a trans man became pregnant it could interfere with their new gender identity.

Biologically, men are men, and women are women, and we don't have the technology to change that reality. Sterilization won't do it, so I don't see why it's made a mandatory part of the process.

But I also don't see why society is somehow obligated to view a trans woman as a woman at all, sterile or not.
 
Roboramma said:
I don't see any reason why infertility is necessary to that, though I can see that if a trans man became pregnant it could interfere with their new gender identity.
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I heard a trans-man telling his story on a PBS story hour show describing his decision to get pregnant, and how he had to either stop taking hormones or change them or something, and describing how weird it was to have "his" body revert to feminine characteristics, and then get pregnant and....

Well, I don't remember the details and I still am pretty sure that if you are pregnant, you're a woman, but ....pronouns whatever.....the point is....

The trans man, while living as a man, was infertile, but the infertility was a temporary effect of hormones he was taking, and "he" was able to revert to a sufficiently female physiology and body chemistry to become pregnant, and he said it did indeed interfere with his gender identity, but he continued to identify as a male throughout the experience.


And take that for whatever a guy on the internet quoting a story he heard on PBS is worth.
 
Meadmaker said:
I heard a trans-man telling his story on a PBS story hour show describing his decision to get pregnant, and how he had to either stop taking hormones or change them or something, and describing how weird it was to have "his" body revert to feminine characteristics, and then get pregnant and....
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I'll raise you the trans man who carried a baby after being inseminated by a trans woman!

https://news.sky.com/story/trans-man-gives-birth-after-using-female-sperm-donor-11897122

Water completely muddied.

Someone made a comment not far back about having one's cake and eating it too. Voila!
 
d4m10n said:
Whom are you quoting here? I'm not seeing this in the Amnesty page.
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Allegedly, it was sent by Charlie from the Community Supporters Team, reproduced here. However Mr Linehan has lost the link and is asking the person who sent it to him to send it again!
 
I'm petitioning my local sports centre to have a gay guy banned from the men's changing rooms. He told me once in casual conversation that he was an active gay man, and I know I've seen him looking in the direction of some of the men - and even boys! - as they were undressing. I think it's unacceptable that hetero men should have to put up with a gay man being in their presence as they undress (and probably getting some level of sexual arousal while doing so). And who knows: maybe on a quiet afternoon, he might be sharing the changing room with just one young adolescent. This guy is very well-built, and I have no doubt that if he so wanted, he could physically restrain the adolescent and commit some sort of sexual assault. I'm sure the sports centre management will find my argument sane and convincing (but I'll damn well be taking things all the way to the Supreme Court if they're stupid enough to refuse my request).
 
LondonJohn said:
I'm petitioning my local sports centre to have a gay guy banned from the men's changing rooms. He told me once in casual conversation that he was an active gay man, and I know I've seen him looking in the direction of some of the men - and even boys! - as they were undressing. I think it's unacceptable that hetero men should have to put up with a gay man being in their presence as they undress (and probably getting some level of sexual arousal while doing so). And who knows: maybe on a quiet afternoon, he might be sharing the changing room with just one young adolescent. This guy is very well-built, and I have no doubt that if he so wanted, he could physically restrain the adolescent and commit some sort of sexual assault. I'm sure the sports centre management will find my argument sane and convincing (but I'll damn well be taking things all the way to the Supreme Court if they're stupid enough to refuse my request).
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Keeping men out of women's spaces has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It is about the known risk that men pose to women and about women's right to dignity and privacy.
 
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LondonJohn said:
I'm petitioning my local sports centre to have a gay guy banned from the men's changing rooms. He told me once in casual conversation that he was an active gay man, and I know I've seen him looking in the direction of some of the men - and even boys! - as they were undressing. I think it's unacceptable that hetero men should have to put up with a gay man being in their presence as they undress (and probably getting some level of sexual arousal while doing so). And who knows: maybe on a quiet afternoon, he might be sharing the changing room with just one young adolescent. This guy is very well-built, and I have no doubt that if he so wanted, he could physically restrain the adolescent and commit some sort of sexual assault. I'm sure the sports centre management will find my argument sane and convincing (but I'll damn well be taking things all the way to the Supreme Court if they're stupid enough to refuse my request).
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Cool story, bro.
 
LondonJohn said:
I'm petitioning my local sports centre to have a gay guy banned from the men's changing rooms.
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You're lying.

Oh, ok. I know you are trying to just make a point, but it's the wrong point. It's just a straw man. You are arguing against a point that you think someone is making, but no one is.
 
Meanwhile, in the real world - another young woman whose sporting aspirations are being crushed by blokes who can't beat blokes, so have suddenly decided they're women.

 
The Atheist said:
Meanwhile, in the real world - another young woman whose sporting aspirations are being crushed by blokes who can't beat blokes, so have suddenly decided they're women.



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Quite a good video.

Brave chick to do it these days.

Forgive me my atrocious spelling from my wee phone keyboard.
 
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