Cancel student loan debt?

[Silly Green Monkey]

In order to avoid being the thread killer, I'd like to address the earlier question of, would cancelling the loans make a difference in my life? Maybe. I haven't really felt any inhibition from car loans or credit cards and such, I try not to incur debts at all if I can help it. I definitely am stopped from even considering getting the certifications I'd need to get my foot in the door, because it's more debt. I could probably do it at a community college, so I wouldn't have to travel too far or live on campus, but it's *more*. If I had a chance of paying it back after getting the certification, even if I didn't get a lab job, I would. However, sending medical field workers and say, teachers, to do manual labor for the sake of 'paying back society' is purely vindictive and doesn't make good use of the very training society paid for them to get. It's exactly the same as what I've done with my education, only with it being forced on me instead of it being due to my own failure at finding employment.

 

[TragicMonkey]

In order to avoid being the thread killer, I'd like to address the earlier question of, would cancelling the loans make a difference in my life? Maybe. I haven't really felt any inhibition from car loans or credit cards and such, I try not to incur debts at all if I can help it. I definitely am stopped from even considering getting the certifications I'd need to get my foot in the door, because it's more debt. I could probably do it at a community college, so I wouldn't have to travel too far or live on campus, but it's *more*. If I had a chance of paying it back after getting the certification, even if I didn't get a lab job, I would. However, sending medical field workers and say, teachers, to do manual labor for the sake of 'paying back society' is purely vindictive and doesn't make good use of the very training society paid for them to get. It's exactly the same as what I've done with my education, only with it being forced on me instead of it being due to my own failure at finding employment.

For Christ's sake (expression intended, there was a man who had ideals about public service) I'm very, very sorry I suggested the possibility of anybody lifting their smallest finger part-time on a few Saturday mornings to do some charitable public work in exchange for that public's largesse in forgiving a fortune in debt. How cruel of me! It sullies the dignity of beggars who are owed special treatment the rest of us don't get. I was certainly wrong and I do apologize. Instead of just forgiving all that bad debt the taxpayers should award fifty times the debt as a grant to each individual, give them titles of nobility, and award them medals honoring them for their work. So long as that work wasn't anything horrifically undignified like doing anything for the collective good.

The only thing worse than extending charity is demonstrating gratitude. Let's agree to never do either, because they upset people.

 

[theprestige]

My counselors felt that biology, though I'm not sure exactly why cellular and molecular with a minor in chemistry was going to be closer to forensic anthropology, than, say, anatomy and physiology would be. The next university did not agree and insisted I take the intro courses.

I've not actually seemed to have much issue getting things like credit cards and car loans, it's mainly the mindset that I have this looming presence always lurking above me. I'm also not sure the income-based repayment plan is really helping with the overall debt, because while it leaves me the money to at least mostly pay paycheck to paycheck, I can feel that looming presence getting larger. It also means although I remind myself frequently in the first few months of reapplying, I will still forget for next year and only be reminded when the late notices roll in.

Without student loans my only debt is my car, and that's less than 10k. My credit took a hit when a boyfriend helped me max out the card and not be able to make any payments, but that's all paid off now.

How do you feel about your student loans as a business investment? Once you get your degree and pursue a career in a field that requires the degree, are you looking forward to returns that will be profitable to both you and your lender?

 

[CORed]

With the renewed conversation starting with Biden's incoming administration, what do you all feel about the push for 50k in student loan forgiveness being proposed by the progressive side of the party? To be clear this is being advertised as being possible by executive order, not any act of the legislative branch.

I'll start off by saying I hate both aspects of this. Such a large fiscal action by Presidential decree seems like a very bad idea. It does not seem to be a good use of political capital at all. I could be ignorant but I can't think of anything that matches that amount attempted in the past by a President.

Beyond the mechanism, I just think it is terrible policy. Helping those most capable and financially able to incur the costs does not even seem like a progressive idea to me. None of the purported benefits seem to amount to much beyond increased costs of those that weren't financially prudent. The attempt to attach this to racial inequality are especially weak, not to get into the incredibly stupid trolley meme making the rounds.

Of all the progressive policies being put forward, this might be the one I am most adamantly against. To be clear I would not personally be affected, as I only went to community college for a few semesters and incurred no debt, but the very idea is just beyond my understanding. The broad brush approach is the worst idea, and the framing of it as most benefiting minorities is disingenuous at best.

So.. thoughts?

The question in my mind with cancelling student debt, or free college education of any sort, is how is it going to work fiscally? We simply cannot keep running the government by increasing debt forever. A point will be reached where the government will have to choose between default and hyperinflation (sort of a would you prefer to be hanged or beheaded type of decision). While Biden could maybe cancel student debt by executive order, he cannot raise taxes that way. Getting any kind of tax increase through a GOP controlled Senate will be just about impossible. That is going to place some limits on a whole lot of stuff that the progressive wing of the Democrats want to do. Even with a 50/50 Senate, Republicans will only need to turn one Democratic senator to win a vote.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

For Christ's sake (expression intended, there was a man who had ideals about public service) I'm very, very sorry I suggested the possibility of anybody lifting their smallest finger part-time on a few Saturday mornings to do some charitable public work in exchange for that public's largesse in forgiving a fortune in debt. How cruel of me! It sullies the dignity of beggars who are owed special treatment the rest of us don't get. I was certainly wrong and I do apologize. Instead of just forgiving all that bad debt the taxpayers should award fifty times the debt as a grant to each individual, give them titles of nobility, and award them medals honoring them for their work. So long as that work wasn't anything horrifically undignified like doing anything for the collective good.

The only thing worse than extending charity is demonstrating gratitude. Let's agree to never do either, because they upset people.

The problem is *how*. My classmate at college went through to become a teacher. His service was to work in a small-town public school after he got his teaching degree. There's nothing vindictive about that, he gets his service done and gets more experience, and he pays back the society. He doesn't wreck his health doing something piddly and entirely unconnected to his field of study to satisfy the sadistic urges of someone who wants to see him suffer for the help he received.


Service is fine. One-fits-all manual labor for everything from medicine to computer science to business is beyond stupid. If anything, my delivering the paper for barely more than it cost to live while delivering the paper, should have counted because the public benefited! That I think is the core issue with your "public service" proposition, while they're walking highways picking up trash, they aren't working to pay rent, they're not gaining experience that will help them in the field of study, they're not making connections with fellow experts in the field that will help them later, they're..... burning calories. Service should accomplish *something* or it's nothing more than busywork.

To put a fine point on it, it's a waste of time that doesn't actually serve.

 

[Delvo]

Almost everything that is taught in school is what's called a "perishable skill", meaning that, just like the fact that food is "perishable" because it decays while waiting to be used, one's job skills decay after graduation if one isn't in a job using them. So this "public service" nonsense would amount to a national requirement that the most highly educated/trained people wait to give their skills some time to decay before eventually finally being free to enter the work force as inferior workers.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Having worked minimum-wage or less jobs for years at a time, I think there's also a factor of relative value. Even my more modest sum would, if worked at minimum wage, require lifetimes to pay back weekend by weekend. Is what has been spent on my education, worth so little in the estimation of those who fronted the money?

Prestige's question is a good one. Had I not been priced out of the education market, I might have reached a level of employment that would have paid back the loans in only a few years. At this point, having seen no return at all on investment, doe you see why I'm reluctant to risk more?

 

[TragicMonkey]

For ****'s sake, can you people not read? (Side note: perhaps that's why your degrees haven't been v. handy. Worth a look into that...) I didn't propose an equivalent dollar-for-dollar employment as picking up trash, then deducting those earnings from the debt. I suggested a token (I repeat: token)... did you get that? TOKEN gesture of occasionally on their off time doing something public-minded such as picking up litter. And I'm deeply, deeply sorry to have made the suggestion because I now realize that the fancy degrees (that don't enable someone to make a living wage or pay their debt) makes people far, far too good for such menial work. People with fancy degrees are simply better than everyone else, even if they are penniless debtors because of those degrees. In my haste to urge the tiniest gesture of good will towards the public I overlooked the fact that degree-bearing debtors are superior beings far above the lowly requirements of work.

Which means the optimal situation would be to do nothing, and let them remain unemployed or underemployed, that they not be soiled with the horror of labor. Sounds like that would be the best solution all around.

Again, I apologize for suggesting public resources expended on individual behalf should in any way even remotely at a tiny fraction of the value received be acknowledged. When you visit your parents at Thanksgiving and they feed you an expensive meal they worked so hard on, do you set the table if they ask you to? Of course not! You throw the plates at them and scream how dare they, how dare they, how dare they ask you do such menial work? Those bastards! You are right to react in fury, and flee, weeping in rage, to the bedroom they'll let you live in rent-free because god knows they learned their lesson about asking anything for that!

 

[dirtywick]

The question in my mind with cancelling student debt, or free college education of any sort, is how is it going to work fiscally? We simply cannot keep running the government by increasing debt forever. A point will be reached where the government will have to choose between default and hyperinflation (sort of a would you prefer to be hanged or beheaded type of decision). While Biden could maybe cancel student debt by executive order, he cannot raise taxes that way. Getting any kind of tax increase through a GOP controlled Senate will be just about impossible. That is going to place some limits on a whole lot of stuff that the progressive wing of the Democrats want to do. Even with a 50/50 Senate, Republicans will only need to turn one Democratic senator to win a vote.

Most of the progressive agenda involves raising taxes. If they don’t win the GA runoffs, forget it for now. None of it is happening without a D majority Senate, and even then it’s probably not first term agenda item, and even then Biden isn’t a progressive anyway and I’m sure it’s not a priority for him.

Biden still has a massive job in front of him regardless. Especially if they lose to a R in GA. He’ll likely be focusing on a recession and pandemic first, hopefully healthcare and maybe fixing the family separations at the border next. That’s a lot right there.

 

[Venom]

For ****'s sake, can you people not read? (Side note: perhaps that's why your degrees haven't been v. handy. Worth a look into that...) I didn't propose an equivalent dollar-for-dollar employment as picking up trash, then deducting those earnings from the debt. I suggested a token (I repeat: token)... did you get that? TOKEN gesture of occasionally on their off time doing something public-minded such as picking up litter. And I'm deeply, deeply sorry to have made the suggestion because I now realize that the fancy degrees (that don't enable someone to make a living wage or pay their debt) makes people far, far too good for such menial work. People with fancy degrees are simply better than everyone else, even if they are penniless debtors because of those degrees. In my haste to urge the tiniest gesture of good will towards the public I overlooked the fact that degree-bearing debtors are superior beings far above the lowly requirements of work.

Which means the optimal situation would be to do nothing, and let them remain unemployed or underemployed, that they not be soiled with the horror of labor. Sounds like that would be the best solution all around.

Again, I apologize for suggesting public resources expended on individual behalf should in any way even remotely at a tiny fraction of the value received be acknowledged. When you visit your parents at Thanksgiving and they feed you an expensive meal they worked so hard on, do you set the table if they ask you to? Of course not! You throw the plates at them and scream how dare they, how dare they, how dare they ask you do such menial work? Those bastards! You are right to react in fury, and flee, weeping in rage, to the bedroom they'll let you live in rent-free because god knows they learned their lesson about asking anything for that!

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I'll try explaining one last time. Take the token gesture of needing to pull pins from a carpet or nails from some boards. Sure, you can run a magnet over the carpet for a long time or take a hammer to the nails to pull them out, but you've just bought yourself a MRI machine. You spent a LOT of money on it! Surely it can repay you a little by pulling the metal from the carpet and boards really quick, right? As long as it doesn't feel too full of itself.

It isn't about entitlement, or superiority, it's about using the tool for what it's good for. While you're sticking nails to the supermagnet, you're not taking scans of sick people. You also just might damage your shiny new MRI machine, and then what of all the money you spent on it? People already do service. Like my teacher classmate, service is best done along the lines of what the money went to pay for.

 

[Venom]

How about a work-study type arrangement, work-repayment, that colleges can promote for recent graduates as an alternative to an internship or traditional graduate studies.

 

[Delvo]

Why stuck with only proposals that inherently pretend that the work a graduate actually studied for doesn't count as work?

 

[Random]

Why stuck with only proposals that inherently pretend that the work a graduate actually studied for doesn't count as work?

Because society should punish poor people for being poor. And the most appropriate punishment is making it harder for them to become rich...

 

[TragicMonkey]

Why stuck with only proposals that inherently pretend that the work a graduate actually studied for doesn't count as work?

Sorry if reality hurts feelings but no career field counts as work until you can get paid to do it. The "pretense" is when someone believes they are too good to do work, on the basis of being qualified to do something "better"...that nobody wants them to do.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I'll try explaining one last time. Take the token gesture of needing to pull pins from a carpet or nails from some boards. Sure, you can run a magnet over the carpet for a long time or take a hammer to the nails to pull them out, but you've just bought yourself a MRI machine. You spent a LOT of money on it! Surely it can repay you a little by pulling the metal from the carpet and boards really quick, right? As long as it doesn't feel too full of itself.

It isn't about entitlement, or superiority, it's about using the tool for what it's good for. While you're sticking nails to the supermagnet, you're not taking scans of sick people. You also just might damage your shiny new MRI machine, and then what of all the money you spent on it? People already do service. Like my teacher classmate, service is best done along the lines of what the money went to pay for.

Better a tool never be used than be employed, even temporarily, for a baser use, eh? PhD hands must never do dishes, they'd prefer to eat off the floor.

It's not like I haven't been there. I graduated college with a useless degree, in debt. I worked minimum wage jobs and had multiple periods of no job at all. I scrimped and lived unpleasant circumstances. I went back to school for a more useful though humbler degree, came out with more debt, had to take jobs that weren't great, and had another spell of unemployment. Then finally at one company I moved from a lowly position to a better one. Because I swallowed my pride and did that lowly job well and without complaining that I was too good for it. From there I moved from lower positions to higher ones, sometimes between different companies. Sometimes the work I'm assigned is unpleasant, sometimes it's far more menial than my talents are required for. I do it anyway because the work needs to be done, it doesn't care who does it, and if I'm being paid to do it I'm not too good for it.

I'm in no way opposed to the forgiveness of student loan debt. I don't expect such a forgiveness to be an even exchange of labor per dollar. I just thought it would be a nice thing if the recipients did something, some small token gesture of appreciation for the special favor. But I can see I was wrong to think that because some (many?) people would rather starve while wallowing in foolish pride than do something they feel is beneath them. That seems irrational to me, as well as against the ideals of public service, community, and personal advancement in both the pragmatic and spiritual senses.

But what would I know about it? I'm just a contented, financially comfortable guy who paid off his forty thousand dollars of student loans by himself through working lowly jobs for years until he could get better ones.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Pardon me for butting in but that's a stupid idea.

You defend it as being just a token, token, TOKEN effort to be completed on Sunday, Sunday, SUNDAY but are overlooking the fact that new systems will need to be put in place to accredit the avenues of token efforts, to document their completion, to produce, review and consume paperwork for the accreditation and documentation, to handle appeals, to handle legal cases, to manage and administer all of this, and all of these people will need to be paid non-token sums of money to do it. Furthermore there's a whole class of parasites at the state and local government level that LOVE petty little BS requirements like this because it gives them leverage to twist their own petty little aims. Expect that in poor black areas your token task will become damned near herculean to be recognized. It's the reason America has homeless programs that cost more than just giving people homes would, and a health care system that costs more than giving everyone care. We'll waste a dollar to keep a dime from going to someone undeserving.

All to soothe your spiteful feelings that because you struggled through it, everyone else should struggle too.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Pardon me for butting in but that's a stupid idea.

You defend it as being just a token, token, TOKEN effort to be completed on Sunday, Sunday, SUNDAY but are overlooking the fact that new systems will need to be put in place to accredit the avenues of token efforts, to document their completion, to produce, review and consume paperwork for the accreditation and documentation, to handle appeals, to handle legal cases, to manage and administer all of this, and all of these people will need to be paid non-token sums of money to do it. Furthermore there's a whole class of parasites at the state and local government level that LOVE petty little BS requirements like this because it gives them leverage to twist their own petty little aims. Expect that in poor black areas your token task will become damned near herculean to be recognized. It's the reason America has homeless programs that cost more than just giving people homes would, and a health care system that costs more than giving everyone care. We'll waste a dollar to keep a dime from going to someone undeserving.

I was thinking it would be a volunteer effort, not a requirement, and therefore nothing needed to be monitored, tracked, assessed. Just show up if you're willing and pitch in, it would be nice. I vastly overestimated the spirit of public good, clearly.

All to soothe your spiteful feelings that because you struggled through it, everyone else should struggle too.

Not at all. If that were my motivation I'd be against debt forgiveness, wouldn't I? You really cannot conceive of anybody doing anything nice for the sake of others without imagining it requires an elaborate system for control, which every part will seek to abuse and extract personal advantage from against the good of the others. You literally cannot imagine people just doing something nice for the collective good?

One of us is taking a selfish position here. I don't think it's me.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I was thinking it would be a volunteer effort, not a requirement, and therefore nothing needed to be monitored, tracked, assessed. Just show up if you're willing and pitch in, it would be nice. I vastly overestimated the spirit of public good, clearly.

You've been talking about it as if it were a requirement, with all that entails. If you're backing down to just an untracked request that student loan holders maybe think about volunteering for something... okay? Why ask just them then, and not everyone?

Not at all. If that were my motivation I'd be against debt forgiveness, wouldn't I? You really cannot conceive of anybody doing anything nice for the sake of others without imagining it requires an elaborate system for control, which every part will seek to abuse and extract personal advantage from against the good of the others. You literally cannot imagine people just doing something nice for the collective good?

One of us is taking a selfish position here. I don't think it's me.

I also worked my way out of student debt. It was a crappy situation and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, nor do I need to get all pissy about other people's debt being forgiven. It's odd that you think that's being selfish.

 

[TragicMonkey]

You've been talking about it as if it were a requirement, with all that entails. If you're backing down to just an untracked request that student loan holders maybe think about volunteering for something... okay? Why ask just them then, and not everyone?

Because not everyone is getting debts forgiven. Is the exchange of favors, out of niceness, alien to you? My parents fed and housed me when I was a kid, I certainly didn't pay them back equivalently for that but I did mow the lawn several hundred times.

I also worked my way out of student debt. It was a crappy situation and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, nor do I need to get all pissy about other people's debt being forgiven. It's odd that you think that's being selfish.

I'm not "getting pissy". As I said several times already, including the post you responded to, I'm not against debt forgiveness. I just think it would be nice if people getting such a lovely gift from the public did something nice for the public. As thanks. Which today of all days if you're American ought not to be an alien concept!