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Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

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ChrisBFRPKY said:
One could make the same argument against Al Gore.......
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You could, but it would be silly.


Al Gore challenged the Florida count on the grounds that there were errors made in counting ballots, and that if properly counted he may have been the winner. That doesn't undermine anything about democracy, or anything except possibly the reliability of certain voting systems.

Donald Trump is saying that massive numbers of fraudulent votes are being cast, that the system is so corrupt that the outcome cannot be trusted, and that our election for the President of the United States is not legal. Moreover, the remedy his lawyers are proposing is to throw out a whole bunch of ballots, and only count the rest. Of course, the ones to be thrown out are for the other guy.

To compare Gore and Trump is simply illogical.
 
Meadmaker said:
You could, but it would be silly.


Al Gore challenged the Florida count on the grounds that there were errors made in counting ballots, and that if properly counted he may have been the winner. That doesn't undermine anything about democracy, or anything except possibly the reliability of certain voting systems.

Donald Trump is saying that massive numbers of fraudulent votes are being cast, that the system is so corrupt that the outcome cannot be trusted, and that our election for the President of the United States is not legal. Moreover, the remedy his lawyers are proposing is to throw out a whole bunch of ballots, and only count the rest. Of course, the ones to be thrown out are for the other guy.

To compare Gore and Trump is simply illogical.
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Given the number of mail in ballots used during this election VS the number of mail in ballots used in the 2000 election, I must admit you are right.
There can be no comparison.
 
dirtywick said:
Dropping the voting machine nonsense then. Good deal.
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If you mean my ideas about how you wouldn't need many people to cheat with voting machines, then no. I didn't detail the idea for any specific state. Just that it wouldn't take thousands to pull it off.

Please don't assign my post any meaning beyond its content. I did not make an accusation.
 
After the hand recount, it’s obvious that voting machines weren’t used to steal the election. I can leave you to muse about easy is hard it would be to do something that didn’t happen as a thought exercise if that’s what you want
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
If you mean my ideas about how you wouldn't need many people to cheat with voting machines, then no. I didn't detail the idea for any specific state. Just that it wouldn't take thousands to pull it off.

Please don't assign my post any meaning beyond its content. I did not make an accusation.
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Your ideas are nothing. Can you establish the machines were manipulated to change votes?
 
The accusation that "the Dems never accepted Trump's win" is pure Freudian:

It's the Republicans who, to this day, can't believe what happened in 2016.
Everything they have done for Trump in the last four years has been the result of treating the Trump Presidency as a fluke, something weird that shouldn't have happened but somehow did, and that they had to make the most of before the collective spell breaks.
 
Nessie said:
That made me search for Al Gore and election fraud, which found this interesting article from 2016;

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rigged-election-bush-gore-florida-voter-fraud

" The history of 'rigged' US elections: from Bush v Gore to Trump v Clinton...
The battle over Florida ripped a veil off a dysfunctional system and offered an opportunity for meaningful electoral reform and new forms of political warfare"

Confidence has been declining in the voting system and Trump has pushed hard against an already opening door. This is from 4 years ago;

"Opinion polls suggest that Trump’s charges of a “rigged election” have struck a nerve: 41% of voters believe him when he says the election could be stolen, according to one survey. More than two-thirds of all Republicans believe that if Hillary Clinton is declared the winner, it will be because of illegal voting or vote-rigging, according to another."
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Florida got their act together. But there are some really strange election laws in Michigan that need to be addressed. I expressed my concerns in an earlier post.

There's always gonna be people that think the election could be rigged. The best thing the Government should do is to prove they cannot be and to not allow the appearance of impropriety anywhere.
 
dirtywick said:
After the hand recount, it’s obvious that voting machines weren’t used to steal the election. I can leave you to muse about easy is hard it would be to do something that didn’t happen as a thought exercise if that’s what you want
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Ah, but you see this proves that the machines were cunningly built with erasers and printers so that they actually mark the ballots instead of scan them. (Remember you heard it here first!)
 
dirtywick said:
After the hand recount, it’s obvious that voting machines weren’t used to steal the election. I can leave you to muse about easy is hard it would be to do something that didn’t happen as a thought exercise if that’s what you want
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I agree. One can't argue with a hand recount of legal ballots.

At this time, there is no evidence that I have seen to suggest the voting machines have been altered. Pending further review.
 
bonzombiekitty said:
Huh? No they can't. Voting is anonymous. There's nothing tying a ballot to a person by the time it's counted. IIRC, in GA when doing a mail in ballot one person verifies the information in the outer envelope to make sure the ballot contained is from a valid voter and marks off the ballot. That ballot is then removed from the envelope and given to a second person who verifies that the ballot itself is good and then it's given to a third person to actually feed the ballot into the machine. Once it leaves the first person, there's no connection of the ballot to the voter.

The most voters in the US can do is see if their vote was counted and see the breakdown of how their county/precinct voted as a whole.
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Almost. In AZ you can see online when your ballot was received, and when it was counted. As you noted, you can't see who it counted your vote for.
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
The best thing the Government should do is to prove they cannot be and to not allow the appearance of impropriety anywhere.
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I can't even imagine what a voting system that 'cannot be' rigged might look like; it's practically a logical impossibility. As for 'not allow[ing] the appearance of impropriety,' how is that possible when the President spends months in advance of polling promulgating the blatant lie that commonplace procedure is improper?

Dave
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
I agree. One can't argue with a hand recount of legal ballots.

At this time, there is no evidence that I have seen to suggest the voting machines have been altered. Pending further review.
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ChrisBFRPKY said:
Sure. Biden should be awarded Georgia's EC votes unless some major fraud is later exposed.
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I’m glad you have embraced the idea of robust investigations to dispel appearances of impropriety.

I can only assume that this enthusiasm will also apply to Trump and all his shady financial dealings after he’s left office.
 
johnny karate said:
I’m glad you have embraced the idea of robust investigations to dispel appearances of impropriety.

I can only assume that this enthusiasm will also apply to Trump and all his shady financial dealings after he’s left office.
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I'm looking forward to 21 January 2021. I'm anticipating some real Trumpenschadenfreude.
 
eerok said:
I'm looking forward to 21 January 2021. I'm anticipating some real Trumpenschadenfreude.
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I’m expecting:

Government debt out of control
Can’t approve positions as Biden’s term is almost up
Trump had a bigger inauguration crowd...
 
Darat said:
I’m expecting:

Government debt out of control
Can’t approve positions as Biden’s term is almost up
Trump had a bigger inauguration crowd...
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I'm expecting a repeat of 2008.

"Biden's in office and look at what a shambles the country is in!"
 
Athyrio said:
Sounds like a legal defense for the aggrieved, if the signature analysts are not properly qualified.
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It's a fair point that signature matching is not a great security measure.

But I don't think that one can toss out election results that followed the laws in place at the time. Perhaps this would be an argument for re-matching signatures to ballots, but this would involve a lot of false negatives and lost votes unless signature experts really are good at matching signatures made years apart. If false negatives are a real risk, then one could try to verify by contacting the voter, but this would be very time consuming. Moreover, even rematching signatures on envelopes to ballots (where this is possible) would be a significant breach of vote confidentiality.

I don't see any reasonable way to rectify the choice of using signature matching to verify ballots. Keep in mind that it would require a large conspiracy for stolen mail-in ballots to make any significant differences in the votes. How the hell would that work?
 
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