Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black man

[theprestige]

Then there's my great great grandfathers who came through Ellis Island. They took jobs that paid way below minimum wage. They worked for more than 7.5 hours a day and 37.5 hours in a week without over time. They didn't get ten minute breaks for every four hours they worked. No paid vacation. No health insurance. No social security benefits. Nothing. What am I owed?

You already got yours. I'm not a huge fan of the "privilege" calculus, but this right here is a pretty textbook example of white privilege. Yes, your ancestors had it hard at one point or another. But you have it a lot better now than they did. And you have it a lot better than a lot of black people do, because whites weren't saddled with systematic and institutional racism and discrimination for several generations.

Oh, the Irish got a bum deal when they first arrived? Tell me more about the Paddy O'Crow laws and the gingerlining of the real estate market.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

You already got yours. I'm not a huge fan of the "privilege" calculus, but this right here is a pretty textbook example of white privilege. Yes, your ancestors had it hard at one point or another. But you have it a lot better now than they did. And you have it a lot better than a lot of black people do, because whites weren't saddled with systematic and institutional racism and discrimination for several generations.

Oh, the Irish got a bum deal when they first arrived? Tell me more about the Paddy O'Crow laws and the gingerlining of the real estate market.

You have no idea how wealthy I am or whether or not I already "got mine." Just because I have a better life today than my ancestors did doesn't mean that they didn't suffer nor that I am not owed compensation for their suffering. Black people have it better today than their ancestors did as well. If they are owed something, so am I.

 

[Mumbles]

My great, great, great uncle half-removed from my married aunt's sister's kid - died in the war to free the slaves. I am told that our family would have owned half the State of New Jersey if he hadn't had gone to fight for the freedom of black slaves in the South. He was drafted so he didn't do this willingly.

His death caused great anguish and great poverty amongst our family and we have never been able to get ourselves out the cycle of deep poverty that started when he was killed.
To whom should I send the bill?

Surviving widows and children were, naturally, entitled to pension benefits.

Also, has anyone in your family attended a school, owned or rented housing, or received a business loan in the US post Civil War? If so, well, that'd mean your family benefited at least indirectly from wealth taken from black (and Native) peoples, as well as in part due to the sacrifices of various black veterans, beginning with the US civil war.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

My great, great, great uncle half-removed from my married aunt's sister's kid - died in the war to free the slaves. I am told that our family would have owned half the State of New Jersey if he hadn't had gone to fight for the freedom of black slaves in the South. He was drafted so he didn't do this willingly.

His death caused great anguish and great poverty amongst our family and we have never been able to get ourselves out the cycle of deep poverty that started when he was killed.
To whom should I send the bill?

Saying that the former confederate states owe quite a bit of money for the persisting damage they did to the people of this country isn't quite the own of the concept of reparations you seem to think it is.

 

[Distracted1]

You already got yours. I'm not a huge fan of the "privilege" calculus, but this right here is a pretty textbook example of white privilege. Yes, your ancestors had it hard at one point or another. But you have it a lot better now than they did. And you have it a lot better than a lot of black people do, because whites weren't saddled with systematic and institutional racism and discrimination for several generations.

Oh, the Irish got a bum deal when they first arrived? Tell me more about the Paddy O'Crow laws and the gingerlining of the real estate market.

Is the argument that it is unacceptable for any white person to "have it any better" than any black person?
Does that not presuppose that the situation of any particular black or white individual is entirely a result of historical precedent?

What, exactly, is wrong with an individual white person having it better than some- or even every black person? Is it also wrong for an individual black person to "have it better" than another black person if that black persons' ancestors suffered greater hardships than the first?

 

[theprestige]

Is the argument that it is unacceptable for any white person to "have it any better" than any black person?
Does that not presuppose that the situation of any particular black or white individual is entirely a result of historical precedent?

The argument is that there has been a systematic locking-out of black people in America, from full access and participation in the engines of economic improvement of our society. Not all whites were complicit in this lockout. Not all whites saw improvement in their own economic conditions from generation to generation. But as a class, the white majority has done better over time than the black minority. And as a class, whites can be found across the full spectrum from rich to poor, more evenly distributed than blacks in America. If some blacks were poor because some of every demographic end up poor, that would be one thing. Some whites are poor, too. But the issue is that many blacks are poor because they have been locked out of full participation in the economic and commercial activity of our society.

So I am not sympathetic to the white complaint that "my ancestors had it hard, too; where's my reparations?" Your reparations came when you were denied a home loan because you're a bad credit risk, not because you're a good credit risk and also black.

 

[Myriad]

So I am not sympathetic to the white complaint that "my ancestors had it hard, too; where's my reparations?" Your reparations came when you were denied a home loan because you're a bad credit risk, not because you're a good credit risk and also black.

It sure would be nice if there were a pro-minority political movement that didn't simultaneously exhibit this sort of contempt for poor and working-class whites.

Just as it would be nice if there were a working-class pro-labor political movement that didn't take racist positions on minorities and immigrants.

Unfortunately, all we have are different segments of the management class playing two sides of the same "let's you and he fight" game.

To hell with the lot of you.

 

[theprestige]

It sure would be nice if there were a pro-minority political movement that didn't simultaneously exhibit this sort of contempt for poor and working-class whites.

Just as it would be nice if there were a working-class pro-labor political movement that didn't take racist positions on minorities and immigrants.

Unfortunately, all we have are different segments of the management class playing two sides of the same "let's you and he fight" game.

To hell with the lot of you.

Huh? It seems like you entirely missed the point of what I was saying.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And you have it a lot better than a lot of black people do, because whites weren't saddled with systematic and institutional racism and discrimination for several generations.

I need me some reparations, seeing as men in general have it better than a lot of women do because men weren't saddled with systemic and institutional sexism and discrimination for thousands of years.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The argument is that there has been a systematic locking-out of black people women in America, from full access and participation in the engines of economic improvement of our society. ...

So I am not sympathetic to the white male complaint that "my ancestors had it hard, too; where's my reparations?" Your reparations came when you were denied a home loan because you're a bad credit risk, not because you're a good credit risk and also black female.

Just last year, my husband and I both applied for apple cards. He got one with a credit limit 5x higher than mine. I make all of the money, he is my househusband.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Unfortunately, all we have are different segments of the management class playing two sides of the same "let's you and he fight" game.

That's a clever way to put it.

 

[Myriad]

Huh? It seems like you entirely missed the point of what I was saying.

I think you entirely missed the point of what you were saying.

For some reason it appears to be easy for some people to perceive the hatred inherent in, for instance, complaints that illegal employment of immigrant workers is undercutting working-class wages, but oddly difficult to perceive the hatred inherent in calling the self-reinforcing consequences of poverty, when applied specifically to whites, "reparations."

 

[theprestige]

I need me some reparations, seeing as men in general have it better than a lot of women do because men weren't saddled with systemic and institutional sexism and discrimination for thousands of years.

Just last year, my husband and I both applied for apple cards. He got one with a credit limit 5x higher than mine. I make all of the money, he is my househusband.

Are you arguing for reparations for women, or attempting a reductio rebuttal to the argument for reparations for black people?

Either way, could you please just skip to the part where you just make a good-faith argument for or against reparations to black Americans for the way they have been systematically persecuted and discriminated against in this country over the past 150 years or so?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Are you arguing for reparations for women, or attempting a reductio rebuttal to the argument for reparations for black people?

Either way, could you please just skip to the part where you just make a good-faith argument for or against reparations to black Americans for the way they have been systematically persecuted and discriminated against in this country over the past 150 years or so?

Bit of both.

I'm not really a supporter of reparations. I don't think they make sense, because they're not a direct amends. The people paying for the reparations aren't the ones who committed the wrongs, and the people receiving the reparations aren't the ones who were wronged. It's not justice, it's visiting the sins of the father onto the sons for seven generations... only it's not even the actual father and the actual sons, it's more like visiting the sins of a hypothetical father onto any sons who vaguely fit the general description of "has a penis and had a father at some point in their life".

Additionally, I find the arguments for reparations to be lacking in substance, and predominantly motivated by emotion. Personally, I get a bit miffed about the continuing discrimination against women that seems to be perfectly acceptable to people who are quite ready to take up arms for minorities. Yes, I know it's a bit selfish, but frankly, I'm a bit tired of women always being expected to take a back seat and place their priorities lower on the totem pole than any other group's issues are.

None of that, however, denies that black people, in general, have been mistreated and disenfranchised and discriminated against. They have, and quite blatantly so. Those inequities in the system need to be fixed.

I don't personally think that cutting someone a check actually fixes the problem, or even remotely addresses it. It's as naïve as thinking that giving people free money will "fix" poverty because then those people won't be "in poverty any more. It glosses over the causes and the systemic issues that trap people in poverty, it ignores the lack of jobs and prospects, it sweeps under the rug the massive impact of childhood disparity in educational and nutritional quality as well as parental stress.

It's not a solution. It's a pay-off. It's the guilty-white-guy version of cutting a check to the mistress so she won't tell your wife about the affair.

 

[Emily's Cat]

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm in a rather intolerant mood today. Not your fault, but I just don't have it in me to passively ignore things that should be obvious as poorly-thought-out crap in the name of being civil.

 

[Vixen]

I need me some reparations, seeing as men in general have it better than a lot of women do because men weren't saddled with systemic and institutional sexism and discrimination for thousands of years.

Poor argument.

 

[Vixen]

Just last year, my husband and I both applied for apple cards. He got one with a credit limit 5x higher than mine. I make all of the money, he is my househusband.

This topic isn't about sexism.

 

[Vixen]

Bit of both.

I'm not really a supporter of reparations. I don't think they make sense, because they're not a direct amends. The people paying for the reparations aren't the ones who committed the wrongs, and the people receiving the reparations aren't the ones who were wronged. It's not justice, it's visiting the sins of the father onto the sons for seven generations... only it's not even the actual father and the actual sons, it's more like visiting the sins of a hypothetical father onto any sons who vaguely fit the general description of "has a penis and had a father at some point in their life".

Additionally, I find the arguments for reparations to be lacking in substance, and predominantly motivated by emotion. Personally, I get a bit miffed about the continuing discrimination against women that seems to be perfectly acceptable to people who are quite ready to take up arms for minorities. Yes, I know it's a bit selfish, but frankly, I'm a bit tired of women always being expected to take a back seat and place their priorities lower on the totem pole than any other group's issues are.

None of that, however, denies that black people, in general, have been mistreated and disenfranchised and discriminated against. They have, and quite blatantly so. Those inequities in the system need to be fixed.

I don't personally think that cutting someone a check actually fixes the problem, or even remotely addresses it. It's as naïve as thinking that giving people free money will "fix" poverty because then those people won't be "in poverty any more. It glosses over the causes and the systemic issues that trap people in poverty, it ignores the lack of jobs and prospects, it sweeps under the rug the massive impact of childhood disparity in educational and nutritional quality as well as parental stress.

It's not a solution. It's a pay-off. It's the guilty-white-guy version of cutting a check to the mistress so she won't tell your wife about the affair.

You're evading the topic again. It is very commonplace for people to say, 'I am not racist but I don't believe in reparations for people who were in enforced slavery for generations for up to 300 years. We are all hurting. What about me, my husband gets five times more credit than me. Let's talk about that instead.'

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're evading the topic again. It is very commonplace for people to say, 'I am not racist but I don't believe in reparations for people who were in enforced slavery for generations for up to 300 years. We are all hurting. What about me, my husband gets five times more credit than me. Let's talk about that instead.'

It's like you didn't even actually read what I wrote, even though you quoted it.

Then again, it's quite common among some groups of people to simply assume that anyone opposed to a proposal must be a bigot. Oh well.

 

[Thermal]

You're evading the topic again. It is very commonplace for people to say, 'I am not racist but I don't believe in reparations for people who were in enforced slavery for generations for up to 300 years. We are all hurting. What about me, my husband gets five times more credit than me. Let's talk about that instead.'

I think that argument is meant facetiously. But if you want to be serious about Reparations, then slavery was introduced and institutionalized in the colonies for centuries by the British Empire. The new US government dismantled it. So pony up those reparations for the lives you ruined. No more passing the buck to us for the horrors you created and we ended.