Cancel student loan debt?

[TurkeysGhost]

If college educated people are reduced to performing unskilled manual labor to pay back their education loans, then why in the ever-loving **** are we loaning them money for education in the first place?

The suggestion was made here that student loan forgiveness be conditioned on performing compulsory labor not of their choosing, such as picking up trash along the freeway.

There's no shortage of college graduates who are getting their hands dirty with low paying jobs, and everyone here knows it. They're just trying to elide that they really want to see the indebted wear a hair shirt in public and are hiding behind attacks of elitism.

 

[theprestige]

False dichotomy. What's wrong with having a workforce that is educated and skilled?

The only thing wrong here is you conflating "nice to have" with "need to have". If we need to have a skilled workforce, and we're spending money for that purpose, then we should make sure that purpose is being fulfilled. Not some other purpose that we don't actually need and didn't actually set out to spend money on.

So. What do we really need? An educated workforce? Or a skilled workforce? Are we spending money on what we really need? Are we getting what we're paying for?

They clearly are not.

All education is clearly not equal, and yet our current program of student loans treats it all as equal. The loans aren't contingent on you getting skills in a much-needed industry. You get the same money whether you go into STEM or into Underwater Basket Weaving.

yes

Yes, there are specific industries where we have a shortage of skilled workers, but our current system of student loans doesn't take that into account. You get the same money whether you go into one of those industries, or into an industry that's already saturated.

Up until now the market has decided.

Wrong. The government student loan program is not market driven. That's the whole problem. You get the same money whether there's a market demand for your degree or not.

These are all good questions. But at some point, one must act. Loans are the present solution. If you think we should stop making college loans, it is incumbent on you to say what we should do instead.

I have said, in this thread, in several different ways.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Accreditation is not an easy nut to crack, but I agree that loans for unaccredited institutions should not be made.

Accreditation is part of the equation, but shouldn't be the end of it.

I think these institutions receiving government money should not just be required to provide high quality education, but track data on whether or not their graduates are actually achieving any kind of meaningful career success. Continued eligibility for government funds could be conditioned on the college actually being a good investment, back by empirical data, for the students that go there and the government that pays for it. They need more skin in the game when it comes to whether or not their degrees are actually worth the money spent on them.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The suggestion was made here that student loan forgiveness be conditioned on performing compulsory labor not of their choosing, such as picking up trash along the freeway.

There's no shortage of college graduates who are getting their hands dirty with low paying jobs, and everyone here knows it. They're just trying to elide that they really want to see the indebted wear a hair shirt in public and are hiding behind attacks of elitism.

If you're referring to me that is a lie. As I have repeatedly said, a gesture towards public service is not a shameful thing.

 

[Stacyhs]

I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages so forgive me if I cover some things that have been already discussed.

I have mixed feelings about this. What about those who have already struggled through years....decades...of paying back their loans and finally finished? Isn't it rather unfair to them to now cancel the remaining loans of others?

I have a niece who wanted to teach high school English. She chose to transfer to Stanford for her last two years. To get a secondary school teaching degree. She went into over $50K in student loan debt to do so. Why? Because she wanted a big name school degree. Did it get her a better job after graduation? No. She ended up teaching in an inner city school in St. Louis for 3 years in order for the government to forgive part of her student loans. She hated every single minute of it. When that was over she still owed most of her student loan and will be paying on it for years. She made a bad decision for a ridiculous reason and I don't see why the rest of her loan should be forgiven.

Do I think there is room for some kind of student loan relief? Yes. Perhaps partial forgiveness, extenuating circumstances such as illness affecting earning capability, unexpected taking on familial custody of siblings, etc. But total, just wipe out all responsibility across the board? I'm not so sure.

 

[crescent]

I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages so forgive me if I cover some things that have been already discussed.

I have mixed feelings about this. What about those who have already struggled through years....decades...of paying back their loans and finally finished? Isn't it rather unfair to them to now cancel the remaining loans of others?

I have a niece who wanted to teach high school English. She chose to transfer to Stanford for her last two years. To get a secondary school teaching degree. She went into over $50K in student loan debt to do so. Why? Because she wanted a big name school degree. Did it get her a better job after graduation? No. She ended up teaching in an inner city school in St. Louis for 3 years in order for the government to forgive part of her student loans. She hated every single minute of it. When that was over she still owed most of her student loan and will be paying on it for years. She made a bad decision for a ridiculous reason and I don't see why the rest of her loan should be forgiven.

Do I think there is room for some kind of student loan relief? Yes. Perhaps partial forgiveness, extenuating circumstances such as illness affecting earning capability, unexpected taking on familial custody of siblings, etc. But total, just wipe out all responsibility across the board? I'm not so sure.

If you look at the seventh post of the thread, there are some specifics of what is proposed. In short, loans like your niece's would not be forgiven. The current proposal mostly only covers federal loans from state universities. Loans for going to Stanford, a private Uni. would not be forgiven.

 

[Stacyhs]

If you look at the seventh post of the thread, there are some specifics of what is proposed. In short, loans like your niece's would not be forgiven. The current proposal mostly only covers federal loans from state universities. Loans for going to Stanford, a private Uni. would not be forgiven.

Good.

I spent a $100K inheritance to pay for my daughter's college. I'd be pretty damn pissed if she could have taken out a loan and then had it forgiven!

 

[gnome]

I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages so forgive me if I cover some things that have been already discussed.

I have mixed feelings about this. What about those who have already struggled through years....decades...of paying back their loans and finally finished? Isn't it rather unfair to them to now cancel the remaining loans of others?

I have a niece who wanted to teach high school English. She chose to transfer to Stanford for her last two years. To get a secondary school teaching degree. She went into over $50K in student loan debt to do so. Why? Because she wanted a big name school degree. Did it get her a better job after graduation? No. She ended up teaching in an inner city school in St. Louis for 3 years in order for the government to forgive part of her student loans. She hated every single minute of it. When that was over she still owed most of her student loan and will be paying on it for years. She made a bad decision for a ridiculous reason and I don't see why the rest of her loan should be forgiven.

Do I think there is room for some kind of student loan relief? Yes. Perhaps partial forgiveness, extenuating circumstances such as illness affecting earning capability, unexpected taking on familial custody of siblings, etc. But total, just wipe out all responsibility across the board? I'm not so sure.

I think I see where you're coming from, and yet there is a possible flip side--should something continue to be a struggle for people just because it's been a struggle in the past? As an analogy, if someone finally puts a disabled ramp in for some stairs, is it unfair to those who had to crawl to the top before?

That isn't a slam dunk--I don't think there's an obviously correct point of view to it.

 

[theprestige]

Accreditation is part of the equation, but shouldn't be the end of it.

I think these institutions receiving government money should not just be required to provide high quality education, but track data on whether or not their graduates are actually achieving any kind of meaningful career success. Continued eligibility for government funds could be conditioned on the college actually being a good investment, back by empirical data, for the students that go there and the government that pays for it. They need more skin in the game when it comes to whether or not their degrees are actually worth the money spent on them.

I dispute the notion that a college education should be measured by the career success of the student. There are too many factors, and too much freedom of choice, for colleges to held responsible for the career outcomes of their students.

 

[Stacyhs]

I think I see where you're coming from, and yet there is a possible flip side--should something continue to be a struggle for people just because it's been a struggle in the past? As an analogy, if someone finally puts a disabled ramp in for some stairs, is it unfair to those who had to crawl to the top before?

That isn't a slam dunk--I don't think there's an obviously correct point of view to it.

Some things can be fixed, some can't. Perhaps an equitable solution could be found for those who have repaid their loans like reimbursing a partial amount in the form of a tax credit spread out over a number of years depending on the amount of years of payback/size of the loan.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I dispute the notion that a college education should be measured by the career success of the student. There are too many factors, and too much freedom of choice, for colleges to held responsible for the career outcomes of their students.

On the individual level, sure. Trends for larger populations is another story.

If 0% of graduates if Strip Mall Tech's forensic science program end up getting relevant degrees, you can probably conclude that the program is a bad place to send money.

 

[acbytesla]

Good.

I spent a $100K inheritance to pay for my daughter's college. I'd be pretty damn pissed if she could have taken out a loan and then had it forgiven!

My parents didn't contribute a dollar for my education. I needed all the help I could get.

And even though I paid for it all, I don't resent anyone getting help.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I dispute the notion that a college education should be measured by the career success of the student. There are too many factors, and too much freedom of choice, for colleges to held responsible for the career outcomes of their students.

If they cannot demonstrate the value of their degrees, how do colleges justify the prices they charge for them? Most industries are capable of rustling up metrics of some sort of another. "We definitely provide advantages, but they are impossible to quantify" sounds more like religion than business. Perhaps colleges should rebrand as temples, so they can just collect the money as tributes to the faith rather than in exchange for actual service.

 

[Stacyhs]

My parents didn't contribute a dollar for my education. I needed all the help I could get.

And even though I paid for it all, I don't resent anyone getting help.

My sister and I were both very lucky as our parents paid for our college educations. But, then again, that was back in the day when a state uni full time student in CA cost about $200-300,IRC, per semester if you lived at home and commuted and went to a community college the first two years which we did. Very reasonable.

I was lucky enough to have that inheritance to be able to give my daughter the full uni experience, plus she had an academic scholarship which was $21K per semester for four years. A private uni education is ridiculously expensive.

 

[acbytesla]

My sister and I were both very lucky as our parents paid for our college educations. But, then again, that was back in the day when a state uni full time student in CA cost about $200-300,IRC, per semester if you lived at home and commuted and went to a community college the first two years which we did. Very reasonable.

I was lucky enough to have that inheritance to be able to give my daughter the full uni experience, plus she had an academic scholarship which was $21K per semester for four years. A private uni education is ridiculously expensive.

I know it is. Just paying my in state public tuition was a struggle for me. Who am I kidding. Paying my rent while I was in college was a struggle. I was always working at least 30 hours a week and going to school at the same time.

Really was the hardest time of my life.

 

[Stacyhs]

I know it is. Just paying my in state public tuition was a struggle for me. Who am I kidding. Paying my rent while I was in college was a struggle. I was always working at least 30 hours a week and going to school at the same time.

Really was the hardest time of my life.

But you persevered. Good on you!

 

[Brainster]

Accreditation is part of the equation, but shouldn't be the end of it.

I think these institutions receiving government money should not just be required to provide high quality education, but track data on whether or not their graduates are actually achieving any kind of meaningful career success. Continued eligibility for government funds could be conditioned on the college actually being a good investment, back by empirical data, for the students that go there and the government that pays for it. They need more skin in the game when it comes to whether or not their degrees are actually worth the money spent on them.

Guess which colleges would do well under this kind of rubric? Yep, the Harvards and Yales and Browns. But is it because they give great education, or is it because they get the students who are going to succeed to begin with? And I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the schools that would do poorly by your measuring stick? The historically Black colleges and universities. And what's more, if you believe in systemic racism, you would predict this--black college graduates are less likely to get ahead than white college graduates because of racism, ergo, schools that have a lot of black students will tend to do poorly compared to schools that have a lot of white students.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If they cannot demonstrate the value of their degrees, how do colleges justify the prices they charge for them? Most industries are capable of rustling up metrics of some sort of another. "We definitely provide advantages, but they are impossible to quantify" sounds more like religion than business. Perhaps colleges should rebrand as temples, so they can just collect the money as tributes to the faith rather than in exchange for actual service.

Are schools/society still pushing the "Getting a degree is the important part, what the degree is in doesn't matter" thing as much as it was when I was a lad?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Are schools/society still pushing the "Getting a degree is the important part, what the degree is in doesn't matter" thing as much as it was when I was a lad?

I think I'm the same age as you, so I'm not sure. But I think the general unspoken assumption of the middle class is that everyone goes to college if they can acquire the money for doing so.

 

[theprestige]

My parents didn't contribute a dollar for my education. I needed all the help I could get.

And even though I paid for it all, I don't resent anyone getting help.

Two of the premises I'm questioning:

Whether these loans are actually helping people in every case.

Whether these loans are the best way to help people in every case.

I also don't resent anyone getting help. I do kinda resent the government spending taxpayer dollars on stuff that isn't actually helping, or isn't the best way to help.

I'd much rather this be a discussion about improving public policy, than a discussion about who's morally superior.