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Cancel student loan debt?

SuburbanTurkey said:
There are wide categories of public service jobs in which the PSLF debt forgiveness program is largely seen as absolutely necessary for these careers to be viable.

For example, social workers are often not paid much and are required to have expensive Master's degrees as a prerequisite for the job. Many government jobs require post-secondary education and while they often have good non-salary benefits, the pay is often not comparable to private sector jobs of similar education requirement. It's hard to imagine anyone that isn't already wealthy being able to afford being a social worker if they did not have this 10 year loan forgiveness scheme.

I suppose we can scorn these people for willingly choosing a job that is notorious for being under-payed, but I imagine a desire to serve the community and vulnerable people plays a big role in the choice to enter these jobs.
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So there is currently a system in place to reward underpaid work with tuition forgiveness after a certain amount of working time spent in that occupation, and your complaint is?.. It sounds like a good program to me. And maybe it should be expanded. But again you compare salaries where as government work is only competitive with benefits taken into account. Glad we can acknowledge that but let's not minimize it.

We should be happy that we take into account that certain necessary jobs require schooling that doesn't necessarily translate to higher earnings. That should be rewarded, and you seem to imply it is. These degrees will still hold value even after the required years are put in to reach loan forgiveness. And I don't feel it is scorning to point out that these fringe conditions seem to be already addressed, where as the demand for loan cancellation seems to be in totality, not focused to need.

It should be we help the people most in need, not just help the most people. This does not seem like a situation where we have to make the choice of all or none, so lets choose some and be happy funds went where most agree it helps society.
 
rdwight said:
So there is currently a system in place to reward underpaid work with tuition forgiveness after a certain amount of working time spent in that occupation, and your complaint is?.. It sounds like a good program to me. And maybe it should be expanded. But again you compare salaries where as government work is only competitive with benefits taken into account. Glad we can acknowledge that but let's not minimize it.

We should be happy that we take into account that certain necessary jobs require schooling that doesn't necessarily translate to higher earnings. That should be rewarded, and you seem to imply it is. These degrees will still hold value even after the required years are put in to reach loan forgiveness. And I don't feel it is scorning to point out that these fringe conditions seem to be already addressed, where as the demand for loan cancellation seems to be in totality, not focused to need.

It should be we help the people most in need, not just help the most people. This does not seem like a situation where we have to make the choice of all or none, so lets choose some and be happy funds went where most agree it helps society.
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I have no complaint with the PSLF, other than it is often poorly administered and people are capriciously denied when they qualify.

My point is that there are certainly jobs that require training and education, especially in public service, that don't offer salaries that can ever really justify the tuition costs. The reasoning of the PSLF is that the skilled work that these people provide can't solely be measured by their salaries, and that the government should take a part in ensuring that people can get the education necessary to fill these rolls.

An educated workforce is good for the country generally, not just for those who might pull a higher salary. That's not to say that all educations and fields are equal, but there's probably more to consider beyond the ability of people to repay their loans in a timely manner. It's a social benefit to have a highly skilled workforce and the government should take action to ensure education costs don't prevent otherwise capable people from realizing their abilities.
 
Again I'd argue there is very little grey area between:

- General knowledge which has been as free and Democratic as something can possibly be short of forming a Borg Collective since the internet has become a thing.

- A specific skill that society needs people to perform.

The first one shouldn't be subsidized because it shouldn't cost anything. It's not society's job to pay for you to sit in a big lecture hall while a professor just reads off to you the same thing you could watch a free lecture online about.

The second should be subsidized but the society has the right, indeed the duty, to be the one that decides what skills get spent money on. Basically if it's on someone else's dime, they get to say what you study.

Here seriously what they should do.

"The US Government predicts we will need 20,000 more Roadkill Scrappers, 10,000 more Tap Dance Shoe Repairers, and 5,000 Trapeze Artists within the next ten years. Ergo we will subsidize 20,000 people to go to Roadkill Scrapper school, 10,000 to to go to Tap Dance Shoe Repair University, and 5,000 to the Trapeze Artist Bootcamp."

Giving 35,000 people student loans and hoping enough of them pick "Roadkill Scrapper," "Tap Dance Shoe Repair," and "Trapeze Artist" as their major is a recipe for throwing resources down the drain.
 
dudalb said:
Maybe Students Loans should be tied in with some kind of public service? Earn your loan?
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SHhhhhhh! Don't like SuburbanTurkey hear you say that you support Indentured Servitude like that!

The government functions as our own private concierge service. To suggest anything else is fascism.
 
JoeMorgue said:
SHhhhhhh! Don't like SuburbanTurkey hear you say that you support Indentured Servitude like that!

The government functions as our own private concierge service. To suggest anything else is fascism.
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You got me, there's no difference between working a career in public service and getting your loans forgiven and having to report to workhouses to pick up trash on the freeway like someone who got a DUI.

Such strawmanning is beneath you.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again I'd argue there is very little grey area between:

- General knowledge which has been as free and Democratic as something can possibly be short of forming a Borg Collective since the internet has become a thing.

- A specific skill that society needs people to perform.

The first one shouldn't be subsidized because it shouldn't cost anything. It's not society's job to pay for you to sit in a big lecture hall while a professor just reads off to you the same thing you could watch a free lecture online about.

The second should be subsidized but the society has the right, indeed the duty, to be the one that decides what skills get spent money on. Basically if it's on someone else's dime, they get to say what you study.

Here seriously what they should do.

"The US Government predicts we will need 20,000 more Roadkill Scrappers, 10,000 more Tap Dance Shoe Repairers, and 5,000 Trapeze Artists within the next ten years. Ergo we will subsidize 20,000 people to go to Roadkill Scrapper school, 10,000 to to go to Tap Dance Shoe Repair University, and 5,000 to the Trapeze Artist Bootcamp."

Giving 35,000 people student loans and hoping enough of them pick "Roadkill Scrapper," "Tap Dance Shoe Repair," and "Trapeze Artist" as their major is a recipe for throwing resources down the drain.
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There you go. Seems pretty straightforward.

Well, I know the devil is in the details and there really are a lot of decisions to be made on exactly the best way to educate trapeze artists, but in principle, that's really it.

I took a pretty good course on Icelandic Sagas last year. It didn't cost me a dime, but I had the option of paying 45.00 for a verified certificate. I don't see any reason we ought to be subsidizing a 19 year old to go someplace and listen to the teachers talk in person, instead of by watching the videos that I watched.

Now, if we decided that we really needed someone to be very good at understanding Icelandic Sagas, then we should pay a few people to go somewhere and teach, and pay the cost of someone going to learn, and make sure they take the tests and don't cheat, and....you get the idea. Make sure that they become true authorities in Icelandic Sagas, as opposed to me who just thought the stories were neat. We can pay for a real education for those few people.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
You got me, there's no difference between working a career in public service and getting your loans forgiven and having to report to workhouses to pick up trash on the freeway like someone who got a DUI.

Such strawmanning is beneath you.
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Sod off. You're the one who screamed "Indentured Servitude" at the base, vague concept of giving something back.

It's not a strawman to repeat your exact argument back at you verbatim.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Sod off. You're the one who screamed "Indentured Servitude" at the base, vague concept of giving something back.

It's not a strawman to repeat your exact argument back at you verbatim.
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If you try hard enough I trust you can puzzle out the difference between conditioning forgiveness on actually using your education to benefit the public with that skilled labor vs requiring poor people who had the temerity to pursue higher education to report for 500 hours of license plate stamping.

Requiring someone who had to borrow money to attend nursing school to pick up trash on the freeway has little to do with public service and a lot to do with debasing the filthy poors, and you know it.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
You got me, there's no difference between working a career in public service and getting your loans forgiven and having to report to workhouses to pick up trash on the freeway like someone who got a DUI.

Such strawmanning is beneath you.
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And what is wrong with some honest work to repay your Loan?
Or is honest labor beneath you?
 
dudalb said:
And what is wrong with some honest work to repay your Loan?
Or is honest labor beneath you?
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Looking forward to getting all these Medicare moochers along the freeway to show some gratitude to their generous country. We can chain them together so they don't get lost.

Surely you don't think "honest work" should only be the privilege of students? Don't deprive others of this wonderful opportunity to be grateful.
 
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acbytesla said:
I'm not really talking about people that attend expensive private colleges. I'm talking about those community college students. Even that is a chunk of change. I'm also not convinced State schools do all that good a job in admissions.
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Community colleges should be more accessible. They were less than $100 per credit hour deeds ago when I pulled in a few courses that I needed and they can be a great resource for a community. If you find that yours are not, then that is more of a local issue.

State schools have traditionally been awful about admissions. I think they are getting better. Our state legislature has required our premiere schools to accept the tops students from whatever high school they attended in our state. It started as the top 10%, but I think it is down to the top 7% or so for the more selective schools. It isn't perfect, but it is an open door, an opportunity that previously did not exist.

And we have lots of state schools that are less selective but still very good.

The problem is saddling kids who don't get into state schools with massive amounts of debt because they made the poor decision to try to better themselves at an expensive sub-par private school. Everyone involved in that transaction, but the kid, knows it will end in tears and sorrow.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
If you try hard enough I trust you can puzzle out the difference between conditioning forgiveness on actually using your education to benefit the public with that skilled labor vs requiring poor people who had the temerity to pursue higher education to report for 500 hours of license plate stamping.

Requiring someone who had to borrow money to attend nursing school to pick up trash on the freeway has little to do with public service and a lot to do with debasing the filthy poors, and you know it.[/QUOTE}

Problem with your philosophy is you don accept a basic Truth:
TANSTAAFL..There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Somebody has to pay for it.
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dudalb said:
SuburbanTurkey said:
If you try hard enough I trust you can puzzle out the difference between conditioning forgiveness on actually using your education to benefit the public with that skilled labor vs requiring poor people who had the temerity to pursue higher education to report for 500 hours of license plate stamping.

Requiring someone who had to borrow money to attend nursing school to pick up trash on the freeway has little to do with public service and a lot to do with debasing the filthy poors, and you know it.[/QUOTE}

Problem with your philosophy is you don accept a basic Truth:
TANSTAAFL..There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Somebody has to pay for it.
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Free lunch is about opportunity costs. This is covered in Econ 101, but you might have to borrow some money to pay for it.

Funnily enough, having college educated people doing pointless manual labor to show "gratitude" is probably a great example of opportunity cost.
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ponderingturtle said:
What about inexpensive private schools, states have cut their support from their universities so much that many of those schools get as much in federal grants as states spend on their university system. And of course few of those state schools set up the schedules to be very accessible to students who are working full time.
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It seems to me that the loans should be capped at the cost of attendance of the closest state school. This helps to keep the private school affordable, since the kids can only get so much federally subsidized money.
 
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