Cancel student loan debt?

TragicMonkey said:
I agree, the wealthy get too much, it's disproportionate to their contribution. But I don't see that that problem has to be fixed before education financing reform can be attempted. I can splint your broken arm even if I can't treat your cancer. Solving one problem at a time works better, generally, than attempting to solve all problems simultaneously.
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Does it? People have been talking about the exploding cost of higher education for decades. Likewise people have been talking about our failed health care system. Minor tweaks may be on offer, but nothing that will actually address the fundamental failures of the way we allocate these resources.

I think political history has plenty of examples of slow, incremental reform. It also has plenty of examples of dam bursting events, where broad reform occurs in fell swoops. I imagine it's hard to know which is which except in hindsight.


Kicking the can down the road can only go on so long. To be honest, I can easily see such aloofness to the very real concerns of ordinary people being the death knell of the Democratic party as we know it, if not the country.

Why do you think so many people were attracted to a proto fascist like Trump? Why is a strong-man that's going to stick it to out of touch elites a message that resonates with so many? Sure, he didn't deliver, the fascists never do, but the promises remain alluring. Spitting into the face of working people who have real problems is not the road to a stable, healthy society.



A less pessimistic future is that many more of these corporatist ghouls get primaried out of office and it becomes clear that the party has to change to be more responsive to ordinary people's needs.
 
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TragicMonkey said:
It's not "just like" those people though: a postsecondary degree is not a necessity, unlike food, shelter, and medicine. Some people think it's a necessity (which is one of the problems) but it's not. Tiffany-Amber's getting a B.A. in Communications is not equivalent to Mrs Jones getting a heart valve replacement.
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Yep only those from deserving families should have the option to have the education high paying jobs require. You have to keep people in their proper class after all. It wouldn't do for someone from the lower classes to try to join academia for example.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
A less pessimistic future is that many more of these corporatist ghouls get primaried out of office and it becomes clear that the party has to change to be more responsive to ordinary people's needs.
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As long as you can convince some of the ordinary people that other non deserving people will get some benefit to reform you can always get them to tear each other apart. Health care shows that just like education in this country compared to most any other developed country.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Does it? People have been talking about the exploding cost of higher education for decades. Likewise people have been talking about our failed health care system. Minor tweaks may be on offer, but nothing that will actually address the fundamental failures of the way we allocate these resources.

I think political history has plenty of examples of slow, incremental reform. It also has plenty of examples of dam bursting events, where broad reform occurs in fell swoops. I imagine it's hard to know in the moment what kind of scenario it is.

Kicking the can down the road can only go on so long. To be honest, I can easily see such aloofness to the very real concerns of ordinary people being the death knell of the Democratic party as we know it, if not the country.

Why do you think so many people were attracted to a proto fascist like Trump? Why is a strong-man that's going to stick it to out of touch elites a message that resonates. Sure, he didn't deliver, the fascists never do, but the promises remain alluring.

A less pessimistic future is that many more of these corporatist ghouls get primaried out of office and it becomes clear that the party has to change to be more responsive to ordinary people's needs.
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So it's revolution or nothing, eh? I can't imagine how you're going to topple capitalism if you think picking up roadside litter is too extreme an effort.

As for complaining about the Democratic Party, their slow incremental changes actually happen, unlike this internet rhetoric. Joe Biden knocking one third of one percent off the interest due on federally-subsidized student loans for the first six quarters after graduation would have more real-world effect than every post you've made here. Good luck with the revolution, comrade.
 
crescent said:
And those loans would not be covered under Biden's plan. Government loans (Ford and Stafford and others I probably don't know about) at State or local government schools only. No Ivy league, no expensive private schools, no fly-by-night teleschools like those advertised on late-night TV.
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My wife went from homeless to working as a waitress to going to a serious of schools and getting advanced degrees to try to join academia. But they really don't have space for people working while going through school and other such things with out even getting into the adjunct situation. So we have hundred some odd thousands of dollars in student loans at 6%.

And yes we know this program will not help us but it gives us some strong feelings on the matter.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Yep only those from deserving families should have the option to have the education high paying jobs require. You have to keep people in their proper class after all. It wouldn't do for someone from the lower classes to try to join academia for example.
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Sweetie, darling, I mean this in the nicest way possible: irony requires a degree of subtlety. A scalpel, a poignard, a rapier. Your sledgehammery does far more damage to your arguments than to the things you're trying to attack.
 
crescent said:
The other key thing - this is the third time I've mentioned this - is that we don't know what it takes (or will take) to qualify for loan forgiveness. It seems like there is an expectation that the borrower make the effort to pay it back, at least for a decade or so. This may be akin to bankruptcy, implemented only for those who have no assets and who have already tried everything else.
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I guess I haven't paid attention to Biden's plan. (I was an enthusiastic supporter of Biden during this election, but that was based on his promise to not be Donald Trump. Nothing he actually said made any difference to me.) I'm just going by things I have heard Democratic politicians say in the past.

If he has a plan that includes loan forgiveness for people who are low income despite having borrowed money for college, or some variation thereof, then that seems, in principle, like a good idea. If they can't pay their loans, we don't want that thing hanging over them when they're 50. No one really benefits from that. And, like you say, it's a bit like bankruptcy, but it doesn't screw the other lenders at the same time. If they are up to their ears in debt, giving up on the portion owed to Uncle Sam first doesn't seem like a bad idea.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Sweetie, darling, I mean this in the nicest way possible: irony requires a degree of subtlety. A scalpel, a poignard, a rapier. Your sledgehammery does far more damage to your arguments than to the things you're trying to attack.
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IT is just the clear effect of the policies you are endorsing. Clearly we deserve the student debt more than our mortgage because she listened to advice about how education was the way out of poverty. Fools for thinking there is a way out of poverty it is just a higher income poverty.
 
ponderingturtle said:
IT is just the clear effect of the policies you are endorsing. Clearly we deserve the student debt more than our mortgage because she listened to advice about how education was the way out of poverty. Fools for thinking there is a way out of poverty it is just a higher income poverty.
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You don't even know what policies I'm endorsing! I'm in favor of debt forgiveness and reforming the educational system to make borrowing unnecessary! The horrific controversy is that I think there should be a token gesture at community service along with it.
 
TragicMonkey said:
So it's revolution or nothing, eh? I can't imagine how you're going to topple capitalism if you think picking up roadside litter is too extreme an effort.

As for complaining about the Democratic Party, their slow incremental changes actually happen, unlike this internet rhetoric. Joe Biden knocking one third of one percent off the interest due on federally-subsidized student loans for the first six quarters after graduation would have more real-world effect than every post you've made here. Good luck with the revolution, comrade.
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I don't think there will be a socialist revolution. At this point, a fascist takeover seems more likely. I suppose that's a revolution of sorts.

I don't think mild progressive policies becoming the standard for the currently center-right Democratic party qualifies as revolutionary. Sounds like pretty ordinary electoralism to me. It would be no more a revolution than Tea Party or MAGA takeover of the Republican party. Political parties change, and the current Democratic party is top heavy with geriatrics totally out of touch with how real people live these days.

It's probably not worth going into such heated back and forth, we all know Biden will abandon this idea before long. You can always count of Democrats to negotiate themselves into meaninglessness.
 
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theprestige said:
At least he's got the 'to each according to their need' bit figured out. Just needs some work on the 'from each according to their ability'.
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He's not even not asking not what his country can do for him, he's not asking not what he can't do for his country!
 
TragicMonkey said:
You don't even know what policies I'm endorsing! I'm in favor of debt forgiveness and reforming the educational system to make borrowing unnecessary! The horrific controversy is that I think there should be a token gesture at community service along with it.
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To be fair, I like the concept of what you are talking about. The logic is reasonable, but when it comes right down to it, I would just rather they have a full time job and just pay taxes. Other options include partial, rather than complete, loan forgiveness.

In other words, from a purely practical standpoint, I don't think it's a great idea to tell them they have to do extra work in a specific government provided task as a condition of loan forgiveness. I would rather they do work in the private sector and give a portion of the money they earn to the government.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Every single person in this country is getting "something for nothing" all the time. That's living in a society. Unless you live in some an-cap hellscape, we all take advantage of public goods that we did not personally "earn" beyond existing and paying taxes.

I see no reason to single students out for special gratitude-signaling work. They did nothing wrong other than attempting to follow the path that everyone their whole life has been assuring them would lead to gainful employment. How dare these children believe their teachers, their parents, and their government when taking these loans.

It's time that we admit that the current system has failed, that many decent people are trapped in debt that far exceeds any personal failings, and that the whole system needs to be reformed, starting with immediate relief for those trapped in inescapable debt.
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It's called declaring bankruptcy.
 
rockinkt said:
I read the thread - I just didn't get caught up in the drivel.
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Or the words.


Actually, though, in case you don't understand the reaction, from your post it is hard to tell what you meant when you said "It's called bankruptcy." It could mean two things.

Option 1) You believe that people unable to pay student loans should just declare bankruptcy, but you are unaware that it is impossible to discharge a student loan via bankruptcy.

Option 2) You think that laws should be changed to allow people to discharge student loans via bankruptcy.


So, tell us what you're advocating, and we'll decide which of us should provide an outraged response to your messages. Without further clarification, we might all do it.
 
Meadmaker said:
Or the words.


Actually, though, in case you don't understand the reaction, from your post it is hard to tell what you meant when you said "It's called bankruptcy." It could mean two things.

Option 1) You believe that people unable to pay student loans should just declare bankruptcy, but you are unaware that it is impossible to discharge a student loan via bankruptcy.

Option 2) You think that laws should be changed to allow people to discharge student loans via bankruptcy.


So, tell us what you're advocating, and we'll decide which of us should provide an outraged response to your messages. Without further clarification, we might all do it.
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His point is the same either way, though.
 
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