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Cont: 2020 Presidential Election part 3

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Emily's Cat said:
It started with the constant and unending challenges to Obama's election on the basis of him not being a US citizen. At least in that case, it was mostly citizen-driven hassling and "investigations".
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And who was the most prominent citizen claiming this? A politician who lies like hell.

Emily's Cat said:
Trump's entire presidency has been cast as illegitimate,
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No. Hillary conceded, Obama invited Trump to the White House the next day.

Emily's Cat said:
and he has been under investigation for his entire term, in an effort to demonstrate that his win was illegitimate.
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The effort was to find out if Russia had interfered with the election. It did. Also Hillary was under state-sponsored investigation during her entire candidacy, and long before.

Emily's Cat said:
Now the same thing is happening to Biden, using vote fraud as the vehicle for the allegations.
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It's not the same thing. The *president* is the one alleging fraud. Did Obama do that?

Emily's Cat said:
I fully expect that Biden will spend his presidency being under investigation for wrongdoing.
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Oh sure, some will be investigating. And don't forget all those states that ran fraudulent elections (some with GOP governors and GOP legislators). So far, the GOP's evidence demonstrably sucks and is shot through with lies. Let them spin their wheels.

Emily's Cat said:
All that matters is that the seeds of doubt can be sown among the public.
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You're right, that's all that matters to Trump. It started with Trump-sponsored "birtherism" and endless investigation of Hillary. ETA: And his baseless claim that there were 3 million illegal votes for Hilary.

You're right you will be taken to task for this post - you did the "compare" part but not the "contrast" part. It matters.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Okay, I know I'm going to get stupid crap about "bothsides" stuff, and a bunch of people are just going to dismiss anything I say out of hand because it challenges their perception.

But I am really pretty appalled that self-styled skeptics are completely blind to the similarities at play here.

2016 Election:
Trump can't win this election! He can only win by cheating - with the help of evil foreign interests! Trump is actively and purposefully conspiring with Russia! Members of Trump's team are active foreign assets! Everything they do is corrupt! We need to investigate every single possible angle of Trump and everyone on his team to see if we can find anything at all to support the allegation of him colluding with Russia to win the election!
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Except there was help of foreign interests in both elections. Members of Trump's team were foreign assets. And for 5 years we have only seen full throated support of Russia and at the same time attacks on our long term allies. We KNOW that members of Trump's campaign staff provided polling data to Russian oligarchs.
Emily's Cat said:
2020 Election:
Biden can't win this election. he can only win by cheating - with fraudulent votes and illegal voters! Biden's team is actively and purposefully trying to steal the election through fraud! Members of Biden's campaign team and his supporters are cheaters and liars, and the state election teams are helping them! We need to investigate every single vote from every possible angle to see if we can find anything at all to support the allegation of Biden's team cheating in this election!

Different verse, same tune. It started with the constant and unending challenges to Obama's election on the basis of him not being a US citizen. At least in that case, it was mostly citizen-driven hassling and "investigations". Trump's entire presidency has been cast as illegitimate, and he has been under investigation for his entire term, in an effort to demonstrate that his win was illegitimate. Now the same thing is happening to Biden, using vote fraud as the vehicle for the allegations.
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False equivalence. There may be similarities in the accusations, but NOT the supporting facts.

Most of the allegations against Trump have been been demonstrated to be true whereas the accusations of fraud against Biden is demonstrably false.
 
Simple question to Trump Excusers: who is the Defendant in the Trump Election lawsuits?

Because it's not the Biden Campaign.
 
Trump Retweeted

Trey Trainor
@txelectionlaw
Having practiced law for almost 2 decades as a member of the State Bar of Texas, I’ve never known fellow TX lawyer @SidneyPowell1 to be anything but forthright and honest in every case she’s ever taken on. If she says there is rampant voter fraud in #Election2020, I believe her.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Okay, I know I'm going to get stupid crap about "bothsides" stuff, and a bunch of people are just going to dismiss anything I say out of hand because it challenges their perception.

But I am really pretty appalled that self-styled skeptics are completely blind to the similarities at play here.

2016 Election:
Trump can't win this election! He can only win by cheating - with the help of evil foreign interests! Trump is actively and purposefully conspiring with Russia! Members of Trump's team are active foreign assets! Everything they do is corrupt! We need to investigate every single possible angle of Trump and everyone on his team to see if we can find anything at all to support the allegation of him colluding with Russia to win the election!

2020 Election:
Biden can't win this election. he can only win by cheating - with fraudulent votes and illegal voters! Biden's team is actively and purposefully trying to steal the election through fraud! Members of Biden's campaign team and his supporters are cheaters and liars, and the state election teams are helping them! We need to investigate every single vote from every possible angle to see if we can find anything at all to support the allegation of Biden's team cheating in this election!

Different verse, same tune. It started with the constant and unending challenges to Obama's election on the basis of him not being a US citizen. At least in that case, it was mostly citizen-driven hassling and "investigations". Trump's entire presidency has been cast as illegitimate, and he has been under investigation for his entire term, in an effort to demonstrate that his win was illegitimate. Now the same thing is happening to Biden, using vote fraud as the vehicle for the allegations.

It's not going to stop - you know that right?

I fully expect that Biden will spend his presidency being under investigation for wrongdoing. Whether any actual malfeasance took place or not is irrelevant. All that matters is that the seeds of doubt can be sown among the public.
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Well, I agree that the R's started it but that's about it.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Seems to me you are trying very hard to 'normalize' Trump.
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Seems to me that you've missed the point.

Emily's Cat said:
I fully expect that Biden will spend his presidency being under investigation for wrongdoing. Whether any actual malfeasance took place or not is irrelevant. All that matters is that the seeds of doubt can be sown among the public.
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Minoosh said:
You're right you will be taken to task for this post - you did the "compare" part but not the "contrast" part. It matters.
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Look at the tactics, the effect on the public, and the overall precedent set for politics. It started (in my memory at least) with the challenges to Obama's nationality. It has continued since then, and will very likely continue into the future. This is now an acceptable political tactic for making the party in power ineffective.
 
acbytesla said:
False equivalence. There may be similarities in the accusations, but NOT the supporting facts.
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That's the point.

Emily's Cat said:
I fully expect that Biden will spend his presidency being under investigation for wrongdoing. Whether any actual malfeasance took place or not is irrelevant. All that matters is that the seeds of doubt can be sown among the public.
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It's the tactics being employed that are my concern. Facts are irrelevant for this tactic.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Look at the tactics, the effect on the public, and the overall precedent set for politics. It started (in my memory at least) with the challenges to Obama's nationality. It has continued since then, and will very likely continue into the future. This is now an acceptable political tactic for making the party in power ineffective.
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Nicely done for proving that all the trump investigations were just to undercut his political authority and had no merit. Bravo on successful both-sides-ism
 
Emily's Cat said:
Okay, I know I'm going to get stupid crap about "bothsides" stuff, and a bunch of people are just going to dismiss anything I say out of hand because it challenges their perception.

But I am really pretty appalled that self-styled skeptics are completely blind to the similarities at play here....
Click to expand...

Minoosh said:
And who was the most prominent citizen claiming this? A politician who lies like hell.

No. Hillary conceded, Obama invited Trump to the White House the next day.

The effort was to find out if Russia had interfered with the election. It did. Also Hillary was under state-sponsored investigation during her entire candidacy, and long before.

It's not the same thing. The *president* is the one alleging fraud. Did Obama do that?

Oh sure, some will be investigating. And don't forget all those states that ran fraudulent elections (some with GOP governors and GOP legislators). So far, the GOP's evidence demonstrably sucks and is shot through with lies. Let them spin their wheels.

You're right, that's all that matters to Trump. It started with Trump-sponsored "birtherism" and endless investigation of Hillary. ETA: And his baseless claim that there were 3 million illegal votes for Hilary.

You're right you will be taken to task for this post - you did the "compare" part but not the "contrast" part. It matters.
Click to expand...

I'm glad I rolled over to the next page before answering EC; Minoosh did a much better (and more measured) job than I think I could have, especially with that last line. So I'm just going to respond to that one line I've highlighted, because it's gotten to be kind of a pet peeve* with me. I'm appalled that anyone would think that there's something about being a skeptic that requires one to be always floating neutrally above the battle, perpetually clinging to "bothsides do it!" No, please, just stop, ok? Skepticism is a process designed specifically for reaching conclusions, not a position in itself that forbids ever doing anything more useful than pretending all viewpoints are equal and equally valid. If the process is followed, then a conclusion can follow; skepticism isn't like virginity, you don't lose it when you use it.

*
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Look at the tactics, the effect on the public, and the overall precedent set for politics. It started (in my memory at least) with the challenges to Obama's nationality. It has continued since then, and will very likely continue into the future. This is now an acceptable political tactic for making the party in power ineffective.
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...By Republicans.

With what you said, you're pointedly ignoring that Democrats only did anything close with actual facts and brazen action by Trump not taken wildly out of context backing them up all throughout.
 
Aridas said:
...By Republicans.

With what you said, you're pointedly ignoring that Democrats only did anything close with actual facts and brazen action by Trump not taken wildly out of context backing them up all throughout.
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Yeah, but she also said facts don't matter. Both sides bad because Republicans make baseless allegations against Democrats that fall apart under any scrutiny while Democrats make allegations against Republicans that are found to be valid in court.
 
The PA Supreme Court has rejected the Trump campaign's challenge to poll-watching in Philadelphia. Among other things, it says the campaign's own evidence shows Republican poll-watchers were able to stand close enough to see what was going on.

The court rules that Philadelphia complied with state law when deciding where poll-watchers should be, that the city's rules were reasonable, and that they "allowed candidate representatives to observe the Board conducting its activities as the law requires.

http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinions/Supreme/out/J-116-2020mo - 104608159120049033.pdf
 
The PA Supreme Court didn't just reject the Trump campaign's lawsuit. They REVERSED a lower court decision that said observers should be allowed to be within 6ft of poll workers.

That reversal handicaps any claims about throwing out ballots because observers weren't allowed to be close enough. They pretty much un-did the one marginally important win the Trump campaign has had in court.
 
bonzombiekitty said:
The PA Supreme Court didn't just reject the Trump campaign's lawsuit. They REVERSED a lower court decision that said observers should be allowed to be within 6ft of poll workers.

That reversal handicaps any claims about throwing out ballots because observers weren't allowed to be close enough. They pretty much un-did the one marginally important win the Trump campaign has had in court.
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It wasn't going to work anyway.

In fact, one of the judges who dissented in this ruling (5-2) said that they would have ruled the case moot, so it wouldn't have had any effect.
 
Elagabalus said:
Well, I agree that the R's started it but that's about it.
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I agree that the R's started it, but I think it was during Whitewater. (And Travelgate, and some sort of banking thing that was bogus, and all sorts of other investigations during the Clinton years.) That was the first fishing expedition investigation I remember. Maybe there were also some before that, but it seems that ever since then it has been one investigation after another.

ETA: I would not put Iran-Contra in the same category. I think that was a perfectly legitimate investigation.
 
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