IDF General Sued For "Targeted Killings"

[Skeptic]

That issue has been dealt with LONG ago. They were all nazis. They all deserved it.

Hon, you set up death camps and start a war whose purpose is to enslave or kill hundreds of millions of people, you deserve to have your cities firebombed. As far as I'm concerned, the only problem with the firebombing of Dresden is that is wasn't done to enough German cities. If I ever meet any of the RAF "war criminals" who helped wipe Dresden off the map, I'd buy him a drink and congratulate him for a job well done.

"But not all of them were nazis, you know!" "Think of the children!". Sure. Just like the Germans were so considerate and thoughtful to a million jewish children who were gassed and shot and starved, to say nothing of their other victims. Truth is, the firebombing of Dresden was simply giving Germany a tiny taste of the horrors and terrors they had so wantonly spread throughout the world.

That the sons and grandsons of those in the Wehrmacht, SS, and Gestapo now wag their fingers at the sons and grandsons of those who served in the RAF, complaining, "How could you have been so uncivilized and bomb Dresden?" makes me sick. You know how the RAF became so uncivilized and barbaric? It learned it from the Germans, that's how!

 

[ImaginalDisc]

That issue has been dealt with LONG ago. They were all nazis. They all deserved it.

Hon, you set up death camps and start a war whose purpose is to enslave or kill hundreds of millions of people, you deserve to have your cities firebombed. As far as I'm concerned, the only problem with the firebombing of Dresden is that is wasn't done to enough German cities. If I ever meet any of the RAF "war criminals" who helped wipe Dresden off the map, I'd buy him a drink and congratulate him for a job well done.

"But not all of them were nazis, you know!" "Think of the children!". Sure. Just like the Germans were so considerate and thoughtful to a million jewish children who were gassed and shot and starved, to say nothing of their other victims. Truth is, the firebombing of Dresden was simply giving Germany a tiny taste of the horrors and terrors they had so wantonly spread throughout the world.

That the sons and grandsons of those in the Wehrmacht, SS, and Gestapo now wag their fingers at the sons and grandsons of those who served in the RAF, complaining, "How could you have been so uncivilized and bomb Dresden?" makes me sick. You know how the RAF became so uncivilized and barbaric? It learned it from the Germans, that's how!

Allow me to translate:

Yes my friends, two wrongs do make a right.

 

[Skeptic]

Allow me to translate:

Yes my friends, two wrongs do make a right.

Just punishment isn't a wrong.

 

[webfusion]

A commentary about the nature of these lawsuits (from the OP) and why they are allowed to be filed in US courts...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/658648.html

• The steps being taken (against Avi Dichter) in the United States are based on American law that grants American courts "universal" authority regarding damages or physical injury caused as a result of the violation of international law, regardless of where the damage was caused. Many dozens of suits have been filed in the United States based on these laws.

 

[Chaos]

Just punishment isn't a wrong.

Then you DO claim that the children in these cities were indeed guilty of crimes?

 

[WildCat]

Then you DO claim that the children in these cities were indeed guilty of crimes?

You seem to have missed my queston, I'll re-post:

Hmmmm, nope, I still don't see what PM Chaos would do when rockets from beyond the border start blowing up in Chaos-land. Surely, you must have a response that would not have the slightest chance of killing those innicent civilians?

 

[webfusion]

meanwhile, during the current fighting...

IDF continues to rocket and strafe into civilian areas:

The Israel Air Force bombarded Gaza Strip targets Friday in response to recent rocket fire from the Strip. Before dawn, IAF planes attacked 13 ground targets in the Gaza Strip that were used either as launching sites for Qassam rockets or paths leading to the sites.

 

[Chaos]

You seem to have missed my queston, I'll re-post:

I didn´t miss it. I ignored it.

I refuse to answer pointless questions posted by people who cheer whenever innocent civilians are killed in "targetted" attacks. Or those who think new-born German children were justly punished for their crimes during the Allied bombing raids.

If I were ever to hear something resembling regret over the death of innocent bystanders from your camp, I might reconsider my stance.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I refuse to answer pointless questions posted by people who cheer whenever innocent civilians are killed in "targetted" attacks.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position:

"what would PM Chaos would do when rockets from beyond the border start blowing up in Chaos-land."

...and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position:

"I refuse to answer pointless questions posted by people who cheer whenever innocent civilians are killed".

 

[WildCat]

I didn´t miss it. I ignored it.

Of course you did! Because you have no ideas of your own, nor a pressing need to have one. Israel doesn't have the luxury of ignoring the problem, nor of failing to come up w/ a response.

If you were a neutral player in this you'd have an alternative course of action to go along w/ your criticism. I happen to find it likely your anti-Israel stance stems from some other reason than this issue du jour.

 

[Orwell]

I see that the Israel right-or-wrong crowd are still quite busy spreading idiotically partisan male bovine manure.

Still trying very hard to justify the unjustifiable, eh?

 

[WildCat]

I see that the Israel right-or-wrong crowd are still quite busy spreading idiotically partisan male bovine manure.

Still trying very hard to justify the unjustifiable, eh?

Name calling and mocking, those are crazy skeptic skills you got there! Thank you for another meaningless comment.

 

[webfusion]

regretfully...

"If I were ever to hear something resembling regret over the death of innocent bystanders from your camp, I might reconsider my stance."


My camp is the State of Israel, of which I am a citizen.

So long as the Palestinians pursue WAR, they will get WAR, in spades, and all that it involves.

From today's headlines:
The Abu el-Reesh Brigades, an armed group in the main Fatah faction, has been involved in firing rockets into Israel.
Khaled Abu Sitta, 25, a senior leader from the Fatah breakaway group Abu el-Reesh Brigades, was killed in his car that he was driving near the southern Gaza city of Khan Younis.
Abu Sitta and other militants were on their way back from launching rockets at Israel when the explosion happened, Palestinian security officials said.
Israel Defense Forces sources denied involvement in his death, calling it a "work accident" and saying that his car went up in flames when the missiles he was driving around with exploded. The mishap caused an undetermined number of casualties among the innocent Palestinian bystanders in the streets of Khan Yunis at the time.

 

[Chaos]

Of course you did! Because you have no ideas of your own, nor a pressing need to have one. Israel doesn't have the luxury of ignoring the problem, nor of failing to come up w/ a response.

If you were a neutral player in this you'd have an alternative course of action to go along w/ your criticism. I happen to find it likely your anti-Israel stance stems from some other reason than this issue du jour.

Israel doesn´t have the luxury of resorting to the "bomb them, and let god sort them out" strategy exclusively, either, since that one will make the problem worse, not better. Besides, if you never try anything else, you can´t claim everything else is worse.

Your pathetic, thinly veiled attempt at labelling me an anti-semite is noted. If I had still believed, after two years on the receiving end of the hate-mongering, lies and character assassination that you and your kind prefer over rational argument, that you are interested in honest discussion, I´d be cured now.

 

[Skeptic]

Then you DO claim that the children in these cities were indeed guilty of crimes?

No, what I claim is that the moral responsibility for their deaths lies squarely, and completely, not with the RAF but with Hitler and the Germans. When a country wages agressive war of annihilation and subjugation throughout Europe and Asia with the goal of making themselves into the master race that rules the world, that country deserve to have its cities firebombed by those it attacked; and the moral responsiblity for those who die in the firebombing lies with the agressive country, not with those who pay it back in kind. The dead children in Dresden are just as much Hitler's responsibility as the dead children in the Warsaw ghetto.

 

[Skeptic]

Israel doesn´t have the luxury of resorting to the "bomb them, and let god sort them out" strategy exclusively, either,

Maybe not, but the Palestinians are sure pursuing just that strategy.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Is Israel allowed to defend herself? Apparently, if you think they do it must be how, exactly?

Why, by making sure, in advance, the weapons they use meet with approval and moral okay of civilians 10,000 miles away who've never been in combat or danger in their lives.

Besides, how "targetted" is it to drop a one ton bomb into a residential area? A sniper is "targetted". A guided missile is more or less "targetted". But a ****ing one ton bomb?

Tell me, Chaos--by your standards, was the allies' bombing of Germany in WWII, for example, an awful war crime? If you're consistent, it should, for it was the use not of one one-ton bomb, but of millions of tons of bombs, who targeted civilians just as much as the military.

Perhaps we should round up the surviving aviators and put them on trial. I don't discount the awful illegal war-crimes the IDF is committing by bombing civilians, but, if that's the problem, shouldn't we get the REAL criminals--the USAF and RAF--first?

What's that? It was justified because it was a war of survival against a genocidal regime bent on wiping them off the face of the earth?

Ah.... exactly.

Allow me to translate:

Yes my friends, two wrongs do make a right.

Just punishment isn't a wrong.

Israel doesn´t have the luxury of resorting to the "bomb them, and let god sort them out" strategy exclusively, either,

Maybe not, but the Palestinians are sure pursuing just that strategy.

Since this post already contains so many quotes, commentary will take the form of a quotation.

[while engaging in a "battle of wits"]
Westley: You've made your decision, then?

Vizzini: Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

Westley: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Vizzini: Wait till I get going!

[pause]

Vizzini: Where was I?

-The Princess Bride (1987)

 

[Chaos]

No, what I claim is that the moral responsibility for their deaths lies squarely, and completely, not with the RAF but with Hitler and the Germans. When a country wages agressive war of annihilation and subjugation throughout Europe and Asia with the goal of making themselves into the master race that rules the world, that country deserve to have its cities firebombed by those it attacked; and the moral responsiblity for those who die in the firebombing lies with the agressive country, not with those who pay it back in kind. The dead children in Dresden are just as much Hitler's responsibility as the dead children in the Warsaw ghetto.

All right. The Allies had to stop the nazi. I concur. But you are trying to tell me that it was necessary to keep firebombing residential areas right until the end of the war? I´m not talking about industrial targets, after all they are vital to the war effort. But residential areas - that´s exactly the kind of atrocity that the nazis have commited. And whatever you think - just because the nazis did it, that does not make it right for the Allies to do it, too.

Israel doesn´t have the luxury of resorting to the "bomb them, and let god sort them out" strategy exclusively, either,

Maybe not, but the Palestinians are sure pursuing just that strategy.Today 11:16 AM

It isn´t working for them, either. And why does Israel absolutely have to copy a losing strategy, in your opinion?

 

[Skeptic]

But you are trying to tell me that it was necessary to keep firebombing residential areas right until the end of the war?

No, that's not it. You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with military necessity; it has everything to do with justice. Dresden was not a military attack; it was a punishment of Germany. And it was a fitting one: the only punishment that could remotely fit the crimes of Germany, the death camps and slave trade, the genocides and wars.

The just punishment for what Germany did was not, "OK, so we'll cripple your military capacities so you couldn't continue your genoicde". It was also not, "OK, we'll hang a few dozens of your most efficient mass murderers and let the rest of the master race off with a warning not to do it again" (which is in effect what happened after the war.) Only something like the fire bombing of Dresden could be remotely appropriate for the enormity of Germany's crimes.

Not only was Dresden not morally wrong, it was morally necessary. They should have done the same to Berlin and Nuremberg and Munich. But if they didn't, at least doing it to one city, as a token of what Gemany deserved in all its cities, was necessary. Anything less would have been a spit in the face of the victims, a claim that the murderer deserve no worse punishment than taking his gun away (or as you call it, "attacking military targets") if he promises to not try again.

 

[webfusion]

and hiroshima & nagasaki were bombed with nuclear weapons for the same reason, to punish the japanese?