Cancel student loan debt?

[JoeMorgue]

Let's be a little realistic here. If X amount of people get to just not payback an amount of money they borrowed the people who had to pay the money back under similar circumstances are allowed to at least be a little annoyed at it without it being a trolley problem or some grand political philosophy.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Let's be a little realistic here. If X amount of people get to just not payback an amount of money the borrowed the people who had to pay the money back under similar circumstances are allowed to at least be a little annoyed at it without it being a trolley problem.

Envy is a deadly sin, and overcoming it is something expected as part of maturity.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Let's be a little realistic here. If X amount of people get to just not payback an amount of money the borrowed the people who had to pay the money back under similar circumstances are allowed to at least be a little annoyed at it without it being a trolley problem.

Sure, I imagine the vets that spent their teen years dodging the VC were probably mad that later generations didn't have to go die in Vietnam, but that's not a good reason to continue idiotic policy.

It's maddening to see that other people are avoiding a raw deal that screwed you over, but correcting mistakes is still a desirable course of action.

I, for one, attended a reasonably priced state school that was paid for by scholarship and working part time. Perhaps I could have attended a pricier, more prestigious school if I knew the debt would be forgiven. I still don't begrudge those who might benefit from such a scheme when I will not.

 

[acbytesla]

Yep, college loan debt is not a new problem. I'm well into retirement and both my wife and I had to pay back thousands of dollars in loans. My kids worked their way though with a combination of scholarships and loans, and my wife and I took care of those, too. I see the reasoning behind cancelling the debt, but those of us who had to pay 10s of thousands out of our pockets see another, possibly more selfish, side.

Not sure how old you are. But the problem is much worse today and there use to be avenues to discharge student debt. Also college is more expensive today and the debts are larger.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I said annoyed with, that's all.

I'm talking about rolling your eyes and grumbling a bit, not actively opposing it.

 

[theprestige]

Why isn't it working? I can see one obvious reason it's not: the high-paying jobs aren't being acquired. Either no jobs at all, or jobs that pay too little. So either a) the supply of jobs needs to be increased, b) the pay of jobs needs to be better, or c) the expense of the education needs to be reduced. Or d) some or all of the above.

If Lender X is willing to loan $YY,YYY to W for a degree in Q, is Lender X willing to hire W for a salary of some reasonable ratio to $YY,YYY? If Lender X laughs uproariously at the notion, says Q is useless, and the starting pay for an employee with a degree is 1/10,000th of $YY,YYY...then perhaps Lender X is more of a parasite than a symbiont to society.

The government is Lender X in this scenario.

And my understanding is that most employers are more than happy to subsidize training for skills that actually increase their employee's productivity. The real problem is that the lender is kinda decoupled from the engines of productivity that their loans are supposed to be fueling. If this were about employers being able to issue government-backed education loans to improve the value of their own employees, the landscape would look a lot different.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I said annoyed with, that's all.

I'm talking about rolling your eyes and grumbling a bit, not actively opposing it.

That's why I suggested a gesture towards community service. If these youngsters get their loans forgiven at least let them pick up some cigarette butts off the sidewalk, as something for the rest of us. Is that better than getting paid back for your own loans you repaid? Of course not. But it's better than nothing at all.

 

[crescent]

Yep, college loan debt is not a new problem. I'm well into retirement and both my wife and I had to pay back thousands of dollars in loans. My kids worked their way though with a combination of scholarships and loans, and my wife and I took care of those, too. I see the reasoning behind cancelling the debt, but those of us who had to pay 10s of thousands out of our pockets see another, possibly more selfish, side.

Okay - take the amount you and your wife paid. Adjust for inflation. Your argument would be valid if that were the numbers we're talking about.

But that inflation adjusted number is not accurate anymore, because tuition rates have increased at about double the rate of inflation. Relative to mean income, college is more expensive now that when your kids went, and vastly more expensive than when you went.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That's why I suggested a gesture towards community service. If these youngsters get their loans forgiven at least let them pick up some cigarette butts off the sidewalk, as something for the rest of us. Is that better than getting paid back for your own loans you repaid? Of course not. But it's better than nothing at all.

Unless they die young, they pay through the course of their lives as a taxpayer.

The young are no more moochers for needing job training than the old whose infirmity rack up medical costs.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The government is Lender X in this scenario.

And my understanding is that most employers are more than happy to subsidize training for skills that actually increase their employee's productivity.

And which training isn't usually in the same subjects most colleges offer degrees in.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Unless they die young, they pay through the course of their lives as a taxpayer.

But we all do that. One can hardly claim that doing the bare minimum that's a) legally compulsory and b) done by everyone is somehow a meritorious payback for a benefit that not everyone got.

The young are no more moochers for needing job training than the old whose infirmity rack up medical costs.

I didn't call them "moochers". Why are you so vehemently opposed to the notion that people make even a token gesture of service out of gratitude? Does your objection extend so far as to refuse to say "thank you" when you receive a gift? Do you shriek "SOCIETY OWES ME THIS!!!" and snatch the present out of Santa's mittened hands, when others get nothing at all?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

But we all do that. One can hardly claim that doing the bare minimum that's a) legally compulsory and b) done by everyone is somehow a meritorious payback for a benefit that not everyone got.



I didn't call them "moochers". Why are you so vehemently opposed to the notion that people make even a token gesture of service out of gratitude? Does your objection extend so far as to refuse to say "thank you" when you receive a gift? Do you shriek "SOCIETY OWES ME THIS!!!" and snatch the present out of Santa's mittened hands, when others get nothing at all?

I object to it being considered a gift. Public spending isn't a gift. We're allegedly a democracy of free people deciding what's best for our society, not a nation of beggars relying on the largess of our betters. A token gesture of anything smacks of compelled speech.

I see no reason why this public spending need be accompanied by extraordinary gestures of groveling when others are not.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Student loans aren't loans, since they are state-guaranteed.
That cancels the risk part of an actual loan, making it just a mechanism for the State to push number around on the budget.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I object to it being considered a gift. Public spending isn't a gift. We're allegedly a democracy of free people deciding what's best for our society, not a nation of beggars relying on the largess of our betters.

I see no reason why this public spending need be accompanied by extraordinary gestures of groveling when others are not.

Ah, I see. You believe that being in a democracy entitles you to the benefits of the collective, but doesn't in return impose obligations to the rest. Not even the obligation of courtesy.

Since you want to get into the philosophy of democracy I'll just mention that a lot of people, including the ones who invented the damn thing, had ideals of service. We all contribute, we all benefit.

 

[Meadmaker]

That's the way it use to be until the government changed it and made it impossible to discharge student loans.

The lack of bankruptcy is, in my opinion, key to the whole process.

I know why it was put into place. Kids were catching on that at 23, they could arrange for themselves to go bankrupt and suddenly they got free education. I knew one guy in college who was panicked when he got into an at-fault accident that caused injuries to the other driver and he didn't have insurance. (I don't remember the laws at the time, whether insurance was required, whether he was breaking the law by driving without it, or whether it was a case that he had insurance, but not enough. That's not important.) The point is that he was going to lose everything he had, except, he didn't have anything. He was a recent college grad, this would have been in 1985, and all he had was a pile of debt and a car. Well, the car was gone in the accident. He declared bankruptcy, and his loans were gone.

So, ok, they put a stop to that practice, but instead we got into a situation where an 18 year old decided to study literature and built up a debt that was literally impossible to pay off, even after he lost his low-wage job in the recession and found himself unable to pay the car loan. He could get free of the car loan, but the college debt will follow him to the grave.

If somebody over 18 years of age stood to lose some money in the event that the debtor could not pay, they would be cautious about who they gave the money to. This, in turn, might result in them refusing to give out as much money, which would mean that colleges would be under pressure to charge less, and eliminate the position of Assistant Dean for Student Relations.

 

[gnome]

Efficient use of resources isn't a capitalist/socialist position, it's just basic common sense.

If you went 16,000 dollars (the current average debt at the time of graduation here in the US) into the hole to get a a degree in something that begins in "Liberal" and/or ends in "Studies" that's hardly my problem. You didn't learn a useful skill, you obtained knowledge which, again, you can get for free/pocket change in 2020.

Society has a duty to spend its overall resources on things that will return that investment. That's, again, not a capitalist/socialist position it's "not being intentionally stupid."

There's no Polysci 101 approved clustering of government ideals where society paying for people to go to college to get whatever degree "they" want to get makes sense.

I think you overestimate what portion of degrees sought fall under the description you propose. It sounds like a hasty generalization of "these millennials today with their gender studies and philosophy degrees"... to whatever extent that may be true, I suggest that there is a larger problem than that, which needs addressing.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Ah, I see. You believe that being in a democracy entitles you to the benefits of the collective, but doesn't in return impose obligations to the rest. Not even the obligation of courtesy.

Since you want to get into the philosophy of democracy I'll just mention that a lot of people, including the ones who invented the damn thing, had ideals of service. We all contribute, we all benefit.

You're not talking about universal service here, you're talking about identifying and targeting specific populations and compelling them to genuflect in recognition of the nation's benevolence.

You want a civil service draft of all young Americans, go nuts. I'm averse to any policy that makes poor people apologize for being public burdens.

 

[TragicMonkey]

You're not talking about universal service here, you're talking about identifying and targeting specific populations and compelling them to genuflect in recognition of the nation's benevolence.

You want a civil service draft of all young Americans, go nuts. I'm averse to any policy that makes poor people apologize for being public burdens.

Again, you devalue work. Performing work for the public good is somehow a humiliation? Even when it's in exchange for a massive benefit?

Is any sort of work beneath these noble people who contracted monetary obligations they cannot meet? Perhaps they should be not only forgiven their debts but also issued state pensions for life, that they need not soil themselves with mere work! Expecting them to say "thanks" is equivalent to slavery!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Again, you devalue work. Performing work for the public good is somehow a humiliation? Even when it's in exchange for a massive benefit?

Is any sort of work beneath these noble people who contracted monetary obligations they cannot meet? Perhaps they should be not only forgiven their debts but also issued state pensions for life, that they need not soil themselves with mere work! Expecting them to say "thanks" is equivalent to slavery!

What other segments of society should be targeted for compulsory labor to express gratitude to society? Should the elderly on Medicare be forced into caring for children and infants? Social Security beneficiaries? How about school children who receive K-12 education? Maybe we should bring back work houses for those that receive SNAP benefits. What you're suggesting is a major departure for how we generally view public spending which is not conditioned on citizens showing gratitude through labor.

Not all labor is equal. Compulsory labor has gone by many names over the ages, none of them considered good. I trust you can see the difference between the value of freely chosen labor and state mandated indentured servitude reserved for indebted Americans.

The point about free education is that it's beneficial for society as a whole. It's not a gift for these people solely out of kindness. It's a rising tide that generally benefits the entire nation.

Ironically, mandating compulsory menial labor would probably undermine any sincere sense of gratitude or patriotism these people might feel.

 

[gnome]

It doesn't solve the question of existing debt, but I really do like the idea of national service being an option to access higher education. Extending the idea of the benefit given to veterans, but to other kinds of service than military.